Early Pulsar 25 chip P1 module for sale

[notonly1]

I just posted a rare first generation Pulsar P1 module on eBay (for the watch pictured on the left). Check it out.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 0176599335

[Led-Time]

Interesting piece of history, what does all the letters mean.

How on earth did you come by something like that...

[Majestyk]

I'd like to know what the letters represent as well. I see one of these on Ebay a year (actually this is the second one this year), so they are indeed rare.

Jeff

[notonly1]

I really don't have an idea what the letters stand for. Perhaps they have something to do with the different segments. Maybe someone else knows what they represent. The module was with several other items I bought from a former Pulsar employee.

[rewolf]

I guess the letters are just to name the different chips. The "lettered" chips are all of the same size, so they could easily get mixed up.
The remaining 11 chips are of two different sizes, 3 small, 8 bigger. That would mean they are of the same type respectively
A circuit diagram of this module could reveal it. However the only person I can think of that could have one is banned from this forum

[Majestyk]

Maybe it's the first or last name, initial, of the person who developed the chips. Hell, I'd want some recognition on that thing back in 1971/72.

A circuit diagram of this module could reveal it. However the only person I can think of that could have one is banned from this forum Wink

As the Digital Watch Turns.

[rewolf]

Well, now there are even 2 P1 modules on ebay, one partially working. Has this ever happend before?

The photos of the 2nd module show letters on all chips - not all unmarked chips are the same type. Quite surely they mean nothing, it simply goes A,B,C,D,E,F?,G,H,I/1?,K

Interestingly, the chips that are unmarked on notonly1's module are also darker than the others on the 2nd module. Were they blackened to hide them better behind the crystal?

@notonly1: do you have a hires photo of your module? It'd be interesting to see the interconnections to guess the chip functions. Are there also traces on the PCB's rear side?

[notonly1]

Rewolf,
You're right. All the chips were lettered, but the ones in the center were blacked out to prevent them from showing through the time screen. As for better pictures, I'm sorry, but my camera is old and the photos I posted are the best I can do. Also, there are no circuit traces on the back of the PC board.

[retroleds]

A circuit diagram of this module could reveal it. However the only person I can think of that could have one is banned from this forum

Dennis Klien and/or Bruce Wegmann might have one. Simon Alexander might also - all three are current, active members here and two are generally considered reputible sources of information.

Rewolf: The module is made of seven, seperate substrates, each encompassing thousands of components, some on a chip, some off - being an electrical engineer you certainly understand that any schematic would be huge and add little to the functional understanding of this module.

I do have a few of the "exploded" views of this circuit; albiet, not the actual schematics.

This record seems to have a scratch.....it keeps repeating and bleating. As the turntable spins.

[Fitron]

This record seems to have a scratch.....it keeps repeating and bleating. As the turntable spins.

MP3's Ed, get with it dude.

[retroleds]

This record seems to have a scratch.....it keeps repeating and bleating. As the turntable spins.

MP3's Ed, get with it dude.

HUH! Some people still use real turntables for "scratching" http://www.music123.com/Numark-PT01-Por ... 4.Music123

Then one can rap and scratch like the pros...
"repeating and bleating,
at my soul they keep eating.
Rememb'ring the tension,
of the Dis-honorable mention.
Mis'n in action,
the maliginent faction.
No more butcher, baker, or candlestick maker,
and away flew the 'Byrd, (the fake logo maker).
'Woof said, "don't feed the trolls",
yet the shamed one he extols.
Fools, expecting a medal,
when it's trouble they peddle.
Me, I'm on with a smile,
hope this bile ain't too vile.
Always easier to sleep,
when good company you keep."

[rewolf]

This record seems to have a scratch.....it keeps repeating and bleating. As the turntable spins.

You're right - sorry for bringing this up again, that was unnecessary...
I know that Phil has circuit diagrams of the chip internals of some Pulsars - I've seen parts of it and found it very interesting. AFAIK Phil is the best source of information about the Pulsar electronics.

The module is made of seven, seperate substrates, each encompassing thousands of components, some on a chip, some off -
....
I do have a few of the "exploded" views of this circuit; albiet, not the actual schematics.

I'm VERY interested in this information - from what I have gathered on the net, I believed that all the circuitry is on one single-sided PCB.
Can you post those exploded views? Pleeease

being an electrical engineer you certainly understand that any schematic would be huge and add little to the functional understanding of this module.

It may appear huge to someone who is not used to deal with much more complex circuits than a P1. I found the Syncronar patent highly interesting - it contains very detailed circuit diagrams. Good stuff

[retroleds]

Rewolf - all is forgiven. We are a bunch of men, this is what men do.

I will scan the exploded views and some other material today. I don't believe in keeping this stuff in a drawer, but my time has been pretty limited lately.

According to Pulsar, there are seven substrates(display is on one by itself), which are bonded together with epoxy - an early multi layer board. Draws certain repair claims into question, at least beyond the surface. It will be interesting to learn that the earlist P1 modules had a secondary battery encased inside the circuit "sandwich" that was to maintain the time while the main batteries were changed. The new Time Computer has a similar feature.

[rewolf]

Scan, scan, yes, yes
Secondary battery - really interesting.
New Timecomputer - interesting point - any news there?

[retroleds]

Scans are here... http://www.dwf.nu/viewtopic.php?p=14518#14518

[rewolf]

Very interesting, thanks
The article is about the very first prototypes that never went into production, not the P1 module being discussed above.

[Fitron]

"repeating and bleating,
at my soul they keep eating.
Rememb'ring the tension,
of the Dis-honorable mention.
Mis'n in action,
the maliginent faction.
No more butcher, baker, or candlestick maker,
and away flew the 'Byrd, (the fake logo maker).
'Woof said, "don't feed the trolls",
yet the shamed one he extols.
Fools, expecting a medal,
when it's trouble they peddle.
Me, I'm on with a smile,
hope this bile ain't too vile.
Always easier to sleep,
when good company you keep."

That made me snort my cup of tea ow. You need one of these to really be hip tho'.

http://www.x-tremegeek.com/templates/Se ... ctID=13544

Nice scans btw, thanks for taking the time. Come to think of it what happened to the very first prototypes, where are they or were they destroyed? Off topic I know, sorry.

[retroleds]

That made me snort my cup of tea ow. You need one of these to really be hip tho'.

http://www.x-tremegeek.com/templates/Se ... ctID=13544

Nice scans btw, thanks for taking the time. Come to think of it what happened to the very first prototypes, where are they or were they destroyed? Off topic I know, sorry.

No scratching means on that thing- hence, lame-o "Scratching (or "skratching") is a DJ or turntablist technique used to produce a distinctive rhythmic sounds by moving a vinyl record back and forth on a turntable while manipulating the crossfader on a DJ mixer." Wikipedia
I've actually been playing bass for about 36 years, a little piano,banjo and guitar - I've wrote music and songs, but seriously, no rap. Rewolf should be happy to know I have a GERMAN made WARWICK bass amp

This thread has been off-topic for a while. Not super productive, but those old P1 modules are very interesting. Kind of like the Titanic or the Hindenberg - just knowing they went down is interesting enough, even if we never find out why.

Yeah, those scans are not the same item as the P1 module that was sold - maybe more like the P1 modules that were used for that first public unveiling - maybe. I'm thinginh that any schematic that would be readable(considering the thousands of transistors alone) would cover a few square meters of paper at very least.

It may appear huge to someone who is not used to deal with much more complex circuits than a P1.

Electronics engineers aren't the only ones who can read [and understand]schematics. I've read and worked off of more than my share of schematics - my old man started me on simple electronics kits when I was in elementary school. I was doing computer repair before I found digital watches. It's why I am convinced that the banned one has little substantial to offer - I've looked at all the circuits he has posted on the web and they are just bits and pieces, like they were lifted out of an old "101 Circuits for the Begginer". I'm more convinced by a dollar in a man's hand than 100 he says he has in the bank.

[retroleds]

Rewolf: I've just looked at the Riehl patent drawings...I think we have a very different idea of what makes an electronic schematic. Possibly it is a language difference. For purposes of a patent those drawings might be called(in English) "black box" drawings, e.g. a box that is labeled "binary divider" is a "black box" for any device that could perform binary division. It doesn't give us any insight into the internal comonents. It's like the IC chip that led-land shows in his P1 auction - without knowledge of the function and specifications of each input or output, knowing a particular chips' intended function isn't going to help anyone fix one of those modules. I think what we all really are hoping for are "circuit diagrams"....most of us understand how they do their work.

[rewolf]

...I think we have a very different idea of what makes an electronic schematic. Possibly it is a language difference. For purposes of a patent those drawings might be called(in English) "black box" drawings, e.g. a box that is labeled "binary divider" is a "black box" for any device that could perform binary division. It doesn't give us any insight into the internal comonents. It's like the IC chip that led-land shows in his P1 auction - without knowledge of the function and specifications of each input or output, knowing a particular chips' intended function isn't going to help anyone fix one of those modules. I think what we all really are hoping for are "circuit diagrams"....most of us understand how they do their work.

100% agreed.
Language isn't easy (I had to look up a few word sin your rap, realy cool BTW, it gave me a big smile ).
At work our design software names circuit diagrams "schematic drawing". I see both terms as synonym.

How much a schematic goes into detail depends on what you want - too much detail doesn't necessarily lead to a better understanding.

E.g. for the P1 it would be sufficient to have a schematic with all chips, discrete components like resistors, buttons, etc, and their interconnections. Then of course at least a brief description of every chip, like "BCD counter" or "BCD to 7-segment decoder", and its pinout. With this information one can fully understand how the circuit works, and also search faults: a digit shows only even numbers? - probably the least-significant input of the BCD to 7-segment decoder isn't soldered properly.

And OF COURSE you don't have to be an engineer to read a schematic. There are enough engineers that can't read schematics

Some time ago I corresponded with "Him-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named" about certain details of the P2 circuitry. He was able to answer any question (no matter how detailed), and to provide scans of the related circuitry (inside and outside the chip). I have no reason to not believe that he does have the complete circuit diagrams of at least some of the Pulsar modules and chips.
Oh no, I did it again: "Woof said, "don't feed the trolls", yet the shamed one he extols"

[retroleds]

Rewolf - I have to apolgize for being a tad "sensitive" on the whole Phil thing...it was a painful episode here. By exposing some of the unpleasent aspects of the collecting world and the variety of people in it(including impulsive hot-heads like me), it took away a certain amount of the camaraderie. Some parts I wish I had done different, some parts I'm o.k. with - there is a reason I have been a work leader and trainer, but never aspired to be a foreman. Power corrupts, no matter how good your intentions.
Anyway, I too wish I had more in the way of the schematics. I agree that for some faults(displays in particular since the components are more accesible and repairable), further testing might bring a few more to life and would certainly give me peacce of mind that I hadn't given up on one that still had a chance of repair. It's unfortunate that most of the real knowledge is carefully guarded and only given out in morsels - I find myself doing the same thing. Damn.