It is currently 19 Apr 2024, 10:11


Electrochromic display?

Owners of VINTAGE DSM and LCD watches post their topics over here
  • Author
  • Message
Offline

AlmightyTallest

Wizard

Wizard

  • Posts: 360
  • Joined: 02 Jun 2005, 05:36
  • Location: U.S.A.

Electrochromic display?

Post21 Feb 2007, 00:58

Hey guys, I was looking for some info on an early lcd type of display called and electrochromic display. I found info saying that Seiko made an lcd watch which used a display like this with this model number ECD F623A .

Does anyone know how this type of display works, or perhaps a picture of what it would look like?

Was just curious and had trouble finding any info through Google. :)
Offline

redled

Techie

Techie

  • Posts: 235
  • Joined: 24 Jun 2004, 11:56
  • Location: NY

re: Electrochromic display?

Post21 Feb 2007, 09:21

If you can't find any specific information via the web it could just be a name the company chose to describe the standard technology of the day in order to distinguish the watch in the marketplace.

It may be an accurate description, but not a widely known and accepted term.

It strikes me as a technical but generic description of how all such dislplays worked, and still do.
Offline
User avatar

Old Tom

Wizard

Wizard

  • Posts: 274
  • Joined: 15 Dec 2006, 10:48
  • Location: London, England

re: Electrochromic display?

Post21 Feb 2007, 11:35

Not all knowledge is available on the web! Electrochromic displays are quite different from LCD displays in that the visible segments are formed by the reversible electrodeposition of an intensely black compound onto the face plate of the display. By reversing the polarity of the applied voltage the material passes back into a colourless solution, The big advantage is that the display is semi-permanent and maintained even without power so in the Seiko F623 (a small ladies watch with only four digits HH:MM- see page 172 of Pieter Doenson's book) the watch changed the display for about 1 second (it is a slow, fading change) and then removed power from the display for the next 59- the battery life is very long. The slow change was the big downfall, not fast enough to support a seconds display so limited to a watch and clocks that show hours & minutes. They are not that rare but difficult to recognise as it is such a plain watch!
Offline

redled

Techie

Techie

  • Posts: 235
  • Joined: 24 Jun 2004, 11:56
  • Location: NY

re: Electrochromic display?

Post21 Feb 2007, 15:28

Interesting! Thanks Tom. I realize not all information is available online. My statement was just supposition.

Actually, if I had bothered to search 'electochromic' I would have found plenty of information, just not on the Sieko watch. I realize, though, that that combined with Tom's post is merely the exception that proves the rule!

Does anyone know what year this watch was introduced, or if any other watches used this technology?
Offline

AlmightyTallest

Wizard

Wizard

  • Posts: 360
  • Joined: 02 Jun 2005, 05:36
  • Location: U.S.A.

re: Electrochromic display?

Post21 Feb 2007, 18:00

Man I'm glad to be a part of this community! Thanks for the detailed info OldTom and redled, I appreciate it very much.

I don't have a copy of Pieter Doenson's book, but are there any modern watches which have this electrochromic display technology? Or was the Seiko the only known model that used that technology?

If the display is semi-permanent and used such little power, you'd think with a modern Lithium battery and having to only do hours and minutes a watch could go 20 years without a battery change :)
Offline
User avatar

rewolf

Guru

Guru

  • Posts: 1863
  • Joined: 11 Jul 2004, 15:32
  • Location: Ravensburg, Southern Germany

: Electrochromic display?

Post22 Feb 2007, 22:09

In January 2006, Seiko released the "Spectrum e-paper" watch (SVRD001).
Here's the original text, here the Babelfish translation, quite readable.
http://www.popgadget.net/2005/12/bendable_epaper.php
http://www.seiko-watch.co.jp/sp

Prototypes of this watch:
http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NE ... ST=english
http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/gadgets/cloc ... 039344.php

Although the working principle is not electrochromic, the results are similar: the display is semipermanent and consumes very little power. And it's even bendable.
Offline

AlmightyTallest

Wizard

Wizard

  • Posts: 360
  • Joined: 02 Jun 2005, 05:36
  • Location: U.S.A.

re: Electrochromic display?

Post24 Feb 2007, 02:03

very cool rewolf, thanks for the links.

That's a really expensive digital watch!! $2500.. ouch :)
Offline

AlmightyTallest

Wizard

Wizard

  • Posts: 360
  • Joined: 02 Jun 2005, 05:36
  • Location: U.S.A.

re: Electrochromic display?

Post24 Feb 2007, 20:43

Hey guys, I decided to do a bit more searching about this electrochromic display technology and I found this modern watch example for sale.

http://www.moonwatch.com/

If you go to the link "The Moonwatch Story" Theres some interesting information about the early electrochromic watches which they decided to make this moonwatch display from. A Mr. Ken Hollandsworth who worked on the early electrochromic display's in the 70's apparently contributed to making this moonwatch a reality.

I think these displays look neat with the blue background color and the bright bleached white digits. Just wish there were more watches with this technology instead of the ladies Seiko model, I'd like to be able to wear one. :)
Offline

CompuChron

Techie

Techie

  • Posts: 229
  • Joined: 18 Jan 2004, 03:42
  • Location: paris-france

: Electrochromic display?

Post25 Feb 2007, 15:43

Tom Hytlyn talks about the electrochromic display in its book"the digital electronic watch" page 102 and says this:
"They suffer from problems of high current consumption and poor long term reliability"
Offline

redled

Techie

Techie

  • Posts: 235
  • Joined: 24 Jun 2004, 11:56
  • Location: NY

Re: : Electrochromic display?

Post25 Feb 2007, 17:54

CompuChron wrote:Tom Hytlyn talks about the electrochromic display in its book"the digital electronic watch" page 102 and says this:
"They suffer from problems of high current consumption and poor long term reliability"


That's strange; Isn't the whole idea that they don't use high current? Does the book go into any detail about how/why they use a lot of current?
Offline

AlmightyTallest

Wizard

Wizard

  • Posts: 360
  • Joined: 02 Jun 2005, 05:36
  • Location: U.S.A.

re: Electrochromic display?

Post25 Feb 2007, 18:33

That's interesting, and Mr. Hytlyn is referring to watch displays with electrochromics.

Here's what I found on the Moonwatch site.

Around this time, a friend introduced me to Ken Hollandsworth, a mysterious fellow who had worked at several watch companies,including as a VP at Hamilton for several years. He was said to be an encyclopedia ofwatch knowledge and an occasional patron of young entrepreneurs such as myself. Aftercarefully explaining my project to Ken, I proudly unveiled my beautiful painting, drawingit slowly from its blue velvet covering. He looked at the picture carefully and raised aneyebrow. "That's not LCD" he said, "LCD doesn't look anything like that". My heart sank.I had fooled myself with the pretty picture, but nobody else would believe it. "I know," Isaid sadly. He continued "That's electrochromics!" I had never heard the term."Electro-what?" "Electrochromics..." he went on, " was an early rival to LCD technology- afew experimental watches were made in the late 70's, but they didn't catch on. EC displaysdidn't have the switching speed needed to count seconds, and they're difficult andexpensive to make- but they're beautiful, and blue and white, exactly like your moon display".I was elated! Electrochromics was the answer! Unfortunately, I soon found out that electrochromicdisplay technology was virtually a lost art.




To make an exceedingly long and painful story relatively short, I spent the next five years trying to develop a viable Electrochromicdisplay. After a few months of searching, I tracked down one of the scientists who hadinvented the EC display over twenty years ago. While working for American Cyanimidin the 1970's, Gottfried Haake had developed an EC digital watch display for Seiko and Ebauches S.A in Switzerland. Fewer than two thousand pieces had been made beforeLCD displays- much cheaper to produce- wiped out the EC R&D programs, and the EC displaywas virtually forgotten. When I asked Dr. Haake what became of the few EC watchesproduced in the 70's he rolled up his sleeve and showed me the watch he'd been wearingfor 20 years. "I've worn it every day" he stated proudly, "it keeps perfect time". I mustadmit that this was not a masterpiece of design. It had that boxy, technical look of a '77Chrysler. But the display, hallelujah! was blue on white, just as promised. The blue wasa bit lighter than I wanted, but Haake explained that this represented a compromisebetween depth of color and switching speed. A digital watch segment must changeevery minute if not second, whereas each MoonWatch segment changes once every 15days, and could have a much deeper color.



A: The MoonWatch display has been thoroughly tested in a laboratory setting. It has been cycled at an accelerated rate to simulate the moon's cycle over several hundred years with no sign of degradation. Regarding the "Shelf life" of the electrochromic display, we have examined similar displays that were produced experimentally over 20 years ago and which still work perfecltly today. Therefore, we are confident that the MoonWatch will be an heirloom that can be passed through many generations.



It seems like the old 70's electrochromic displays are reliable going by the above information, but they simply don't switch fast enough for many purposes.

I'd like to learn more about the vintage electrochromic watchs if possible, I wonder if it's possible to contact some of these people like Mr. Gottfried Haake and Ken Hollandsworth as well as Tom Hytlyn to help add more information if possible.
Offline

vintagewatches

Nerd

Nerd

  • Posts: 41
  • Joined: 15 Nov 2005, 22:33

: Electrochromic display?

Post05 Aug 2007, 00:34

yea here is the picture at the bottom on right hand

http://www.xs4all.nl/~doensen/fotos/l2-3.jpg

Thanks
kashif
www.vintagedigitalwatches.com
Offline

AlmightyTallest

Wizard

Wizard

  • Posts: 360
  • Joined: 02 Jun 2005, 05:36
  • Location: U.S.A.

: Electrochromic display?

Post05 Aug 2007, 18:14

That's the one Kashif,

If anyone runs across it or has one for sale, let me know please :-D
[site admin chimes in...love what you guys are doing over in this section...great thread!!]
Offline
User avatar

rewolf

Guru

Guru

  • Posts: 1863
  • Joined: 11 Jul 2004, 15:32
  • Location: Ravensburg, Southern Germany

Re: : Electrochromic display?

Post06 Aug 2007, 22:58

vintagewatches wrote:yea here is the picture at the bottom on right hand
http://www.xs4all.nl/~doensen/fotos/l2-3.jpg...
Cool, looks like Peter Doensen has his whole book online, I wasn't aware of this yet!
The abovementioned watch is covered here, with description of working principle.
Click for TABLE OF CONTENTS
(The "Related Photos" links on pages N..T don't work - but you can access the photos if you capitalize the first letter of the .jpg file name in your browser's address field, e.g. "http://..../fotos/N1a.jpg" instead of "http://.../fotos/n1a.jpg")
Thanks to Peter Doensen!
Offline

AlmightyTallest

Wizard

Wizard

  • Posts: 360
  • Joined: 02 Jun 2005, 05:36
  • Location: U.S.A.

: Electrochromic display?

Post07 Aug 2007, 21:52

It's cool to see Peter has an online watch encyclopedia now, it's very informative and the photos really help in finding what your looking for.

It is interesting this electrochromic watch was made from 1982 to 1984, I wonder why it's so hard to find one though. I've tried for over a year now without even finding a broken example or pieces of the watch itself . :cry:

Oh well, I guess that's part of the fun of this hobby ;-)
Offline

AlmightyTallest

Wizard

Wizard

  • Posts: 360
  • Joined: 02 Jun 2005, 05:36
  • Location: U.S.A.

: Electrochromic display?

Post22 Aug 2007, 23:17

Okay, after having trouble finding any more info on an electrochromic watch, I did find some company which makes electrochromic displays. They're called NTera, here's a link:

http://www.epn-online.com/page/18009/pa ... plays.html

I E-mailed them and asked if they had any electrochromic clocks available like the ones pictured. I'd be interested in getting one just to have an example of this type of digital timekeeping technology.
Offline
User avatar

rewolf

Guru

Guru

  • Posts: 1863
  • Joined: 11 Jul 2004, 15:32
  • Location: Ravensburg, Southern Germany

: Electrochromic display?

Post23 Aug 2007, 09:25

The link doesn't work for me :-(
Here's the direkt link to the company: http://www.ntera.com/home.html (HP is currently under construction, no information there :-( )
Offline

AlmightyTallest

Wizard

Wizard

  • Posts: 360
  • Joined: 02 Jun 2005, 05:36
  • Location: U.S.A.

: Electrochromic display?

Post24 Aug 2007, 16:37

Okay, found a more direct link to NTera's ECD technology, with an online catalog and specification sheet.

http://401connect.com/old_site1/products/default.htm

Just click on the links to the left on the page above to see the technology.


Perhaps someday someone here might use the info to make a new digital Electrochromic watch :-D
Offline

AlmightyTallest

Wizard

Wizard

  • Posts: 360
  • Joined: 02 Jun 2005, 05:36
  • Location: U.S.A.

: Electrochromic display?

Post27 Aug 2007, 21:44

Well, here's a copy of the letter I recieved from NTera today.

Thank you for your interest in NTERA, and please accept my apologies
for
the delay in responding to you. NTERA is focused on developing and
marketing our unique NCD(TM) technology and materials for applications
in the printed electronics industry.

At this time, we are not selling display products directly to the
market. In the past, we have developed product applications for
general
purpose displays, including clocks, though that is no longer a primary
focus of our business.

I would be interested to understand a bit more about your proposed
application. Under the right set of circumstances (strategic
alignment,
commercial interest, etc.) we may be in a position to offer you some of
those devices as a development kit.

Best Regards,

Chris Giacoponello
Head of Strategic Development
NTERA, Inc.
100 Four Falls Corporate Center
1001 Conshohocken State Rd.
West Conshohocken, PA 19428 USA
Direct: +1 484 534 2143
e-mail: chris.giacoponello@ntera.com


I guess I can't purchase any clocks from them, but they will help people interested in developing products that use electrochromic displays.
Offline
User avatar

digibloke

Wizard

Wizard

  • Posts: 391
  • Joined: 17 Aug 2005, 14:11
  • Location: Copenhagen/Denmark

: Electrochromic display?

Post05 Feb 2008, 10:25

Sorry for digging up an old thread but one of these just got sold for the princely sum of 40 dollars on ebay...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320212819699&ru=http%3A%2F%2Fsearch.ebay.com%3A80%2Fsearch%2Fsearch.dll%3Ffrom%3DR40%26_trksid%3Dm37%26satitle%3D320212819699%26category0%3D%26fvi%3D1

If anyone here has bought it is there a chance of seeing what the display looks like when it's working?

(my new years resolution of not buying watches which I A) don't really need and B) don't really like came into play here...)
Offline

Lillegutt

Techie

Techie

  • Posts: 134
  • Joined: 05 Jan 2008, 02:48
  • Location: Norway, Skien

: Electrochromic display?

Post05 Feb 2008, 13:04

Is this watch possibly using some of the same technology??


JHH
Offline
User avatar

rewolf

Guru

Guru

  • Posts: 1863
  • Joined: 11 Jul 2004, 15:32
  • Location: Ravensburg, Southern Germany

Re: : Electrochromic display?

Post05 Feb 2008, 15:02

Lillegutt wrote:Is this watch possibly using some of the same technology??JHH
My guess is a simple polarizer film that rotates once per minute, i.e. instead of the second hand.
Next

Return to Vintage DSM and LCD Watches

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 77 guests