Making new modules for old watches

[Synchroserious]

blah blah blah seems to be all you have to offer.I have helped people and will continue doing so wether you like it or not.

[dot matrix]

I agree that a complete Synchronar replacement module would be more useful - the two dead Synchronars currently in my possession have been rendered unrecoverable due to extreme corrosion and battery acid. One is completely corroded - looks like salt water got all through the circuitry and display. I actually had a NOS Synch from ebay that worked great until two years ago when one of the batteries exploded - the battery acid then worked its way through the gel, all the way over the solar panels where it is now visible through the top of the watch. I doubt those panels work anymore.

Probably some way to separate the batteries from the circuitry would be a good idea.

Roger did tell me that there were problems with the gel not working to spec. He was planning to switch over to polyurethane, I don't know if he ever did and whether or not that would have worked, but it seemed like a very sound idea. I believe he said that if any moisture were to ever seep in, it would not be able to migrate through the polyuerethane. And of course, the metal plate that he added to the bottom of the module (against the wrist) probably helped battle seepage and/or micro-cracks.

But given modern anti-shock technologies, it might be a better idea to forget the gel and instead have a robust mounting system for the circuitry, panels and display, and to also have replaceable batteries. The lexan itself seems to decay over time, leading to micro-cracks where moisture can get in. Roger did tell me that cold-water swimming could damage the module, because the quick change in temperature could be a problem for the lexan, actually causing cracks. Of course, if one were to swim in cold salt water, forget it - the salt could then come in through the new micro-cracks and slowly migrate and spread through the gel, leading to a later corrosion of the internals.

Perhaps corrosion-proof circuitry (ie, using gold or some other corrision resistant metal for the circuits) would be a good idea; or make the module out of something crack-proof like ceramic, some new plastic, or metal; and then use saphire crystals to cover the display and the solar panels. Maybe even grow a complete module case out of synthetic saphire!

[retroleds]

dot mentions a very real problem that makes it hard to keep watches air and water tight - temperature change. I was just reading about this in a mechnical watch repair book...they did studies and found that a watch on the wrist heats up to 86 degrees (fahrenheit), forcing air out...then when you take it off it cools, creating a vacuum, "inhaling" dirty air or water if the watch is immersed, thru even the smallest cracks. Additionally, the lexan case has a bit of flex to it, so I'm thinking the gel acts like a hydraulic fluid, passing any pressure externally applied to the case, directly to the inner components....and pulling on components during the disassembly process. I would suggest that anyone opening a Synchronar module consider making a small hole or two in the upper case(hot pin?) to let a little air get in above the solar panel and display, thereby relieving the vacuum created by the gel. And pull it open REALLY SLOWLY to give the gel a chance to seperate from the case.

Sorry I went for that personalized jab in my last post....hard to not get hot when the heat gets turned up. Gonna try to stick to the subject at hand.

DragonFly: The Synchronar IS a chip on board design...look at pictures I posted. It is actually more of a single chip/circuit device than anything else made around that time - the reed swithces(analgous to contacts), the quartz crystal and a resistor to reduce power from the batteries are the only components NOT consolidated to the "master chip"(excepting the batteries,solar panel and display, of course).

Finally, I STILL think the Synchronar was very well built and designed, for it's time. It was a fledgling industry all the way around.

[Synchroserious]

As long as you stop telling people I offer no help,which is the exact opposite of why I joined this forum.I will then not feel a need to counter.
It seems like whenever I post info your not there to read it.I mentioned getting the watch to a warm state will help in seperating lexan and gel. Peace

[retroleds]

Synchroserious(Howard Reihl): I and others appreciate the the tip...we are not the enemy, we just desire honesty in dealing with the past and the present. Like I said before(maybe you missed it), it is a real kick to have someone here who is a living relative of one of those who actually made one of the LEDs, back in the day.

&PeaceB2U2,
Mr.Ed

[DragonFly2]

C.O.B chip on board actually means that the bare die is bonded to the board and electically connected to the copper print with bond out wires ie
wires from the die connect points to the copper print. Most of the 70's watches actually use a quad flat pack (QFP SMT) packaged chip, which was then surface mounted on the board and soldered.

[DragonFly2]

Modules are up and running for my forthcomming range of time pieces, these are designed specifically for that purpose.
Any replacement modules would be based on the LED version of these (the OLED version would be difficult to adapt as the displays are the wrong colours for red glass or plastic faced watches).
The PCB (circuit board) on the existing LED version would need to be redesigned and the display changing from green to red, also the software would need small changes to implement the specific buton controlled functions.
All these factors would depend on which watch the re-modelled module is inended for.Any other brands besides the one allready discussed?

[Majestyk]

who or what is Grasshopper?

You never watched or heard of the show "Kung Fu"? :)

Anyway, I think this is a good idea for expensive, high end watches, like Pulsar's, assorted Drivers watches, etc. Anything else is a waste IMO, because there are enough opportunities to get replacements on Ebay.

Just giving my 2 cents...

MJ

[DragonFly2]

Thanks for your input MJ.
The drivers watches you refer to are probably the Bulova and maybe the Jazz Derby Swissonic?The Bulova is one of my favorites especially the six digit version.The pulsars came in at least 3 significantly different versions.
And Yes I was a major fan of the show back in the day, kwi Chang Kane the Sholin priest and Kung Fu.
It is only really viable to make new replacement modules for the high end watches due to the costs involved , I have to agree.

[gjlelec]

What modules for what watches are available -thanks

[CompuChron2]

Hi,
2 things

-I'm glad to see synchroserious and little1up are cooling down.I know (a little ) Ed (little1up) , he is a really nice and honnest guy and Howard (syncrhoserious) has always answered kindly to my questions.
And we all wish I think that the Synchronar story will start again in a next future.

-Concerning the modules , I see 5 candidates for a revival:

-First and obviously , the Pulsar P3 module , it's one of the nicest if not the nicest electronic watch ever produced , the module will fit P3 but P2 as well and Omega's and Hamilton's, so the market is big and will allow tons of enthusiast to revive their watches.

- Then the Bulova Driver , produced in big numbers but many aren't working any more but the quality makes that often a working module will make a nice watch.(gold plating is thick compared to cheap brands)

-making a Synchronar module will be great for many of us that own only a case(i don't) but the market is narrow unless you make a joint-venture with Howard to fit the new Synchronar's!!!

-Then there is the 26mm module with button at 2 and 7 o'clock that fits thousand of cheaper brands , compu chron , chronosonic , gruen , microsonic....

-Finally there is a 29mm module which fits high end brands like Jaeger Lecoultre , some Hamy's....

The more usefull would be the synchronar because if you have a dead Sync , there's not much to do but if you want to sell them by truck load build a Pulsar P2/P3...

Olivier

[AlmightyTallest]

This drop in replacement is a really neat idea I think, any plans for replacement modules for the Wittnauer Polara Hughes modules? Or are they still common enough to just get vintage working modules?.

I also like the idea of a new replacement module for the drivers watches.

Dragonfly, do you have any plans to sell origional new watches with the OLED technology? I'd like to see what the display looks like :D

Anyways, very cool idea :)

[DragonFly2]

Thanks for your replies eveyone.

Pulsar-France.
Thanks for your input, the P3 module looks like a good candidate, especially as it also fits other models.
On the Bulova drivers it has two significantly different displays.One 4 digit the other 6 digit, depending on available space I could only offer the 6 digit (as a new display)with an OLED based display.This may mean a colour other than red.
The 29mm module I would need pictures and a physical module(dead) to get the precise measurements, display and button positions from.

Gjlelec.
I have an existing module design not intended origionaly as a retrofit module, however it is a simple matter for me to re-design and re-shape the PCB to adapt it for use in other watches.With this interesting possibility in mind I am asking for opinions as to which modules are most needed,from which I will select which to produce.
It would be nice to do say the top 6 or 8, but far better to make a more managable start with the 3 most needed and build from that starting point.

[Planet-LED]

I agree that the Pulsar P3 module would be an excellant place to start. The only difficulty here is the range of magnetic strength in the pushers. I know that Pulsar used four different reed switches in the factory to match magnet strength. You may be able to get around this problem by building a module that does not include reed switches. It just fits down onto the module and uses the switches that already in place.

[gjlelec]

HDLED, why do you think Pulsar used different magnet strengths, i just cant fathom out the thinking behind that policy, may be Mr wegmann could enlighten us on that one

[gjlelec]

dragonfly2 If i was a techie i think i would reproduce the pulsar p3 module, the potential market for those would be huge, servicing the pulsar and omega collectors in one hit. But to be fair, there are modules/rough watches out there that can be used as donors. I think the one i would have to do (though i dont claim to know the complexities involved) would be the Synchronar. By producing P3 modules you would be acting as a wise business man but by producing Synchronar modules i genuinely believe you would save countless watches from watch death ie- in a dark drawer instead of flourishing in the Sun as Mr Riehl intended :D

[Seven Segment]

Hello all,

What a great project that Dragonfly proposes, although I would have to say that whilst a Pulsar module would be relatively easy to ''drop in'' because the four reed switches and battery terminals could be left on place on the plastic holders and soldered onto the new circuit board, I would think that the Synchronar would be possible to repair only by something of an expert. When the old circuit board was to be removed, out would come the reed switches also. To re-align new reed switches in order to have good operation of the sliding magnets would be quite a task, and quite daunting for all but someone with a great deal of patience (as Howard would no-doubt testify). Great comments on this forum by the way!!

[CompuChron2]

Hi DragonFly2,

Your project of builind a retro fit module for old led watches is impassioning . But what is excatly your purpose , building this modules one by one and produce a handfull of them or try to make some money out of it and make them by 100's?
When do you plan to make your first one?1 day?1week? 1month? 1 year?
If you choose the Pulsar , you'll have to put reed switches in them , can you do that?Do you want to make "ready to put" modules or the customer will have to make some adjustement ,soldering...
Olivier

[DragonFly2]

I already have sources for the reed switches for the Pulsar and solutions to the problems with the magnets that have challenged previous attempts to solve the swich/magnet- senstivity/field strength problems.It may be possible to use semiconductor sensors in the replacement module and do away with the adjustments.But the option to transfer the old ones to the new module is also possible as is re-use of the old display if it still works.
As to the production volumes this will be scaled to 'real' demand.It will need to be profitable to be sustained.A standard will be offered with extra cost options.
As to timescales, weeks rather than months ,I only need to make changes to an existing module design, and change the display colour from Green to Red.
One key factor on the time scale is how soon some one gets back to me with a dead module(it will be returned) so I can get exact measurements and put that data into my PCB CAD system to get the process started. PM me anyone who can do this.

[Majestyk]

I hope people won't sell the watches with these new modules without mentioning the fact. Newbie bidders will then buy them and not even know that they have a new module in their vintage case. Then, one day they might sell it and the cycle will continue. There could eventually be a whole new generation of people who won't be able to know a vintage one over the new ones.

I have enough bidders asking me for proof that a vintage watch I'm auctioning is authentic because of all the new LED's out there. These modules will really cause more confusion.

Anyway, just thought I'd mention this. I do like the idea for collectors who have cases and no modules.

[DragonFly2]

I can say that the new display technology and module feature set is diferent to an origional module.To meet the display character size(approx 3.6mm character height) I can only use the latest OLED displays in the retrofit modules.These have a dotmatrix graphic display format.The retrofit module will look quite different to an origonal module, and the plastic carrier will need to be very diferent.The batteries may also be different. These facts will also give them the edge over the far-east module based products.

[collector]

Dragonfly,

Will the replacment modules display SECONDS, like the original ones did. Reason I ask is that the "New" LED's DO NOT. The excuse used is that it is too difficult.

Just curious to your plans.