Junghans Mega 1000 daylight savings Time Question

[collector]

Did anyones Junghans Mega 1000 sync / change to the new correct one hour ahead time here in the US? Mine did not on Sunday morning even though it showed it did sync that morning. As an experiment, I waited for a re-sync on Monday morning - it again reported it did sync but no change in hour time. As an aside, my Junghans Stainless Steel Mega did sync pefectly on Sunday morning and it updated the time correctly.

According to Junghans instruction manual, the watch is supposed to update to DST time automatically here in the US as well as Europe. My initial guess as to why not, is that it has some internal coding that tells it to change on preset dates and it is not "smart" enough to recognize that this date is now flexible thanks to the lawmakers here in the US. I did update the hour manually, but was quite disappointed that on a watch by a company which prides its technology, I had to "do it myself".

Wish the Mega 1000 worked as well as the junghans Stainless Steel model, but again, I paid much more for the "Steel" model.

I'd be interested in others stories as to what happened with DST this weekend.

[AlmightyTallest]

It seems a shame after what you pay for the Junghans and it's atomic calibration feature that they may have just pre-programmed internally the dates on which it would switch over to DST. My $50 Casio G-Shock calibrated correctly this weekend, don't know why the Junghans would not unless it uses the time calibration signal differently than the Casio perhaps?

My NixiChron didn't update because it had the preprogrammed dates on when to change. Had to go through the menus and manually adjust the new dates on when to change over.

Also had to set about a dozen led, and early lcd digital watches which all have a different way of setting the time

[rewolf]

Did anyones Junghans Mega 1000 sync / change to the new correct one hour ahead time here in the US? Mine did not on Sunday morning even though it showed it did sync that morning. As an experiment, I waited for a re-sync on Monday morning - it again reported it did sync but no change in hour time. As an aside, my Junghans Stainless Steel Mega did sync pefectly on Sunday morning and it updated the time correctly....

This is really odd. I live in Germany (DST will be in 3 weeks), but my Mega 1000 has always synced fine.
I don't believe the DST dates are preprogrammed, that would be plain stupid for a radio-controlled watch.
It could miss the switchover at night if it synced too early (before the actual switchover takes place), but at the next sync it should pick up the correct date.
The Mega 1000 has 3 times: home, 1st, and 2nd. I found this quite confusing. Maybe you don't have the "home" time on display?

BTW I love DST - 2 sunday mornings per year dedicated to setting 20+ watches :wink:

[collector]

Hi Rewolf,

I really believe the date for the Mega 1000 to switch to DST has been programmed into the software. The reason I think so is that last year it switched fine (automatically) in the spring (forward) and the fall (backward). The difference this year is that the US Congress saw fit to change the date to an earlier one. I can't wait to see what happens with the watch on the old scheduled change date - will it move forward an hour? If so, my speculation about the software will be proved. (Again, it's not a sync problem because the Sync counter was at 0 both on Sunday and Monday mornings - I also did a manual sync on Monday evening - watched the sync go okay, but no change in the hour.)

Also understand your question about the home time - its set okay, otherwise it would have never changed correctly this past fall. To Almighty Tallest's point a $50 Casio worked just fine. Wish this one which I paid a whole lot more for did too!!!

At least my Junghans Steel Atomic is okay - whatever Junghans engineer / programmer did that one obviously designed it the right way.

[rewolf]

You don't happen to live in Arizona (non-Navaho), where they don't have DST? :wink:
Seriously, you got me confused :?.

And when I'm confused, I usually start to think :wink:
The DST transition is at 2:00am LOCAL time, that is, not at the same absolute time in the different time zones.
There is only 1 transmitter, thus only 1 time signal.
The transmitted time is NOT local time, but UTC. UTC has no DST.
(The Mega 1000 manual says WWVB is "Pacific Time", but I rather believe the WWVB site).
Then, there are areas in the US that don't have DST at all.

This means it's actually up to the watch to decide whether to switch to DST (that is, add 1 hour) or not.
How is it supposed to decide this, and isn't the information in the WWVB time code?

The answer is here: WWVB Radio Controlled Clocks: Recommended Practices for Manufacturers and Consumers.
Page 25:

RCCs in areas that observe DST should advance one hour at 2 a.m.
local time on the first Sunday of April each year, and move back one
hour at 2 a.m. local time on the last Sunday of October of each year.[3]
RCCs must properly interpret the information in the time code (Figure 1)
and apply the time zone settings (Section 5), so the transition takes place
at exactly 2 a.m. local time. Special attention to the DST code is
required when implementing this feature as some manufacturers have
misinterpreted the code...

And also:

Manufacturers might elect to design products that implement the DST
rule[3] at the assigned time, even if the RCC has been unable to recently
read the DST information in the WWVB time code. This will allow the
RCC to handle the DST transition even if the signal has not been recently
received. However, if the DST rules change (they were last changed in
1986 and could conceivably change again), clocks programmed to follow
them will fail, whereas the WWVB time code will always comply with the
current rules. Therefore, we recommend that the DST information in the
time code be used whenever possible and that the programmed rule only
be used for backup or verification.

The last sentence is important. The "DST information" mentioned is defined in NIST Time and Frequency Services as follows (p. 21):

Daylight saving time (DST) and standard time (ST) information is transmitted at seconds
57 and 58. When ST is in effect, bits 57 and 58 are set to 0. When DST is in effect, bits
57 and 58 are set to 1. On the day of a change from ST to DST bit 57 changes from 0 to
1 at 0000 UTC, and bit 58 changes from 0 to 1 exactly 24 hours later. On the day of a
change from DST back to ST bit 57 changes from 1 to 0 at 0000 UTC, and bit 58 changes
from 1 to 0 exactly 24 hours later.

You think this sounds complicated? Me too :wink:, and perhaps also the programmer(s) of the Mega 1000 - so they decided for a "programmed DST rule" instead of using the "DST information" in the time code.
Poor decision, IMHO. Others did better.

I bet your Mega 1000 will switch to DST on the last Sunday of March (and I bet you won't bet against it :wink:)

Also, you can't turn DST off, so what if you live in Arizona? The watch will switch to DST (at the programmed date) and you have to reset it back to ST manually. Nor very smart either.

[collector]

For the last month or so, I wished I lived in sunny Arizona because of the bitter cold here in Lancater PA (EST Zone) but now that it's warming up again I'll stay here because it will get too hot in AZ!!

The info Rewolf researched (see above post) only gave me a another big headache and forced me to re-read the Jungahns manual again. As a result, I will not be taking Rewolfs' bet about the watch advancing at the end of the month when the old DST time change occurs.

The following is a word for word copy of page 66 of the instruction manual:

Paragraph 1:
"Press t4 until time display is selected (time display mode 1). The display shows the time. T4 is used to adjust the time zone. When the time zone is adjusted the main time display changes to show the time in this time zone. Press T4 for more than 3 seconds."

Paragraph 2:
"The upper part of the display shows '1. Time', the hour figure flashes and can be ajusted by the hour using T1 (set +) and T2 (set -). Where necessary the date is automatically adjusted at the same time."

Paragraph 3:
"To reset the main time to your home time (see chapter 8.3 'Home Time), press T2 for more than 3 seconds when in one of the 5 time display modes. The main time display then shows the selected home time again. If the home time has not been set manually then the time zone of the transmission station that was last used for synchronisation is shown."

Paragraph 8.3:
"Once the desired 12-24 hour time display mode has been set, press T4 to adjust the home time zone setting. This setting enables you to set the home time. This should correspond to the time zone where you spend most of your time and can be adjusted using T1 set + and T2 set -. press T4 to return to the normal time display mode."

Bottom line is I had done all that when I initally set the watch up and it obviously worked correctly as last year it made the necessary DST time changes automatically. To Rewolf's point, I might be wrong, but, I agree / really believe Junghans took the easy programming way out and the watch will DST time adjust later this month on their pre-programed date. So no suckers bet there!!!

I really wish Junghans had made the Mega 1000 time zone setting and DST change process as simple as they did on my Jungahns Steel Mega. All I have to do is choose the time zone I'm in EST, CST, MST, PST, etc and the watch does everything else!!! Really works well as when I have travelled and set the Time Zone to the new one, the watch has the right local time after syncing the next AM. (Obviously, on this watch, some Junghans engineer adhered to the techinical stuff in Rewofls post above)

As as aside to Junghans time zone confusion, last year I sold a two time zone Novus to a fellow in Indiana whose home stradled the Indiana / Illonis state border. He wanted it because the front of his house was in one time zone and the rear in another. His wife worked in one time zone and although he worked just 2 miles away he was in another time zone. Talk about confusion!!

[rewolf]

Curious: did it advance one hour last night (following the 'old' rule)?

[collector]

The Junghans did not advance 1 hour this weekend. Here in the US, I believe under the old rules, DST was scheduled to change the first Sunday in April. Let you know what happens with the DST change next Sunday!!!!!

[Luca.Brazi]

I had the same problem with my Junghans Mega Apollo MF Model number 56/4405 403. This watch sells for around $800 and is a multi-frequency (U.S., Europe, Japan). Junghans may have taken a shortcut and may have hard-coded the DST change function based on a date. No doubt this was cheaper and easier and probably required one line of code that accessed the calendar function instead of the more complicated action of reading the WWVB DST bit. As pointed out in this forum, the WWVB signal has a bit flag for DST. The flag should have been read and DST set accordingly. It didn't happen. As mentioned in this forum, an alternative would be to allow the user to set DST on or off. My Timex atomic allows for this. As it stands, every time that I do a manual sync, the watch loses one hour and I have to change the time zone to compensate.

My Timex and my Eurochron (a low end Junghans) watch both synchronized correctly but my fancy dancy, expensive Junghans refused to do so.

This exact problem is discussed in Leo Laporte’s (The Tech Guy) podcast
(show number 334). He specifically mentions Junghans in the early part of the podcast. HIS Junghans watch did not synchronize properly and he’s not happy about it.

I actually like this watch very much; it looks great, syncs easily, and has high quality components. But, I wouldn’t have purchased it if I had known of these problems.

[Luca.Brazi]

The final chapter can now be written on the "Junghans Mega MF Debacle.” I awoke this morning to find that the watch had synced itself and moved ONE HOUR AHEAD. Of course, this is what one would expect since I have to set the watch one time zone ahead. The watch thinks that I’m located somewhere in the middle of the Pacific Ocean (I’m in California). As I recall, this is known as “Alaskan Time.” I had to manually reset the watch to the correct (PDT) time zone setting. At least now the watch will manually sync properly until October 28th when it will incorrectly set itself back one hour. Thus, it will incorrectly manually sync for one week and I’ll have to change the time zone. On November 4th it will then sync itself correctly and I’ll have to set the watch back to the correct time zone.

I bought this expensive watch (like Rolex, each watch has its own unique number stamped on the side) for its alleged ability to set itself correctly and very accurately in various parts of the world. Clearly, Junghans took an engineering shortcut and I would be suspect of their products in the future. They really should issue a recall and offer an update to the watches to have this problem corrected.

[rewolf]

Luca, thanks for the info. So now we know for sure the Mega 100 does have a big problem...
Did you (or other US users) try to contact Junghans about this? Would be interesting to see what they answer.

[collector]

Hi Rewolf,

Glad i DID NOT take your 'sucker bet'

I bet your Mega 1000 will switch to DST on the last Sunday of March (and I bet you won't bet against it )

I had the same experience as Luca.Brazi did. The Junghans Mega 1000 moved 1 hour ahead this morning, another confirmation that the "programmers' Junghans used for this PARTICULAR MODEL did not program it properly. My Jungans Mega Steel which synced properly several weeks ago DID NOT advance this am. It worked properly.

In my opinion, Jungans needs to replace the Mega 1000 programmers with the Mega steel programers who know how to do it correctly. Or hire the programmers from Timex!!!!

As a matter of principle, now that I have conclusive proof about their poor programming, WILL be in touch with Junghans. This sort of performance on a high end watch is simply unacceptable.!!! I will post how I make out with them!!!

[collector]

Well here is the story of what I have encountered this AM in trying to get some sort of answer from Jungans regarding the DST programming problem with the Junghans Mega 1000. (See previous posts.)

Called the "official" Junghans USA distributer on 1- 800-853-5486. The person I spoke to was totally unhelpful and disinterested. First said never heard of the Mega 1000, then said not sold by them here in the states nothing they could do even though they are the official Junghans distributer here in the US. I asked if there was a manager whom I could speak to, told no, not there problem, but could call the "official" USA Jungahns service center on 1-877-203-0542.

Called that number, first time went through call prompts which were totally unhelpfull and ended up nowhere. Called a second time and waited for a human to answer. The person who answered started to listen to my story about the DST time change problem and before I even finished it, started to tell me "a bunch of their watches did not change because the signal strength of the tower was weak". I calmly told her my issue was not with being able to sync, but with how the Mega 1000 was programmed. After a while, I think she understood what I was trying to convey. After establishing what the problem was, she told me the "Junghans" tech was off today and no one else, management or otherwise could help me till I spoke to the tech and to call back tomorrow. (No attempt to take my telephone # in order to have someone proactively call me back.) I also politely told her she should alert someone to the problem with the Mega 1000 as there would likely be other calls regarding the DST problem the Mega 1000 was having. Based on our conversation I doubt anything is / was going to happen till I call back tomorrow.

Right now I'm bitterly disappointed in Jungahns and especially their customer service department / attitude. I would have expected much more from a company such as Junghans!!!! Right now there is no way I would ever purchase another Junghans or recommend one!!!!!

Will post more tomorrow - in the meantime would like to hear if anyone else has been able to contact Junghans. Or, if someone has an in with them, would appreciate the contact info. Thanks!!!

[Luca.Brazi]

Collector et al,

I had a similar circumstance when I attempted to communicate with the U.S. distributor. Eventually, I emailed them and got no response. No doubt, this has been a can of worms for them. The next step is to communicate with the main office in Germany. If they were smart they’d make an offer to replace the watch to anyone who is dissatisfied with it based on the DST failure.

In many ways this is a metaphor for a lot of German engineering these days. For example, Consumer Reports did NOT have a single Mercedes-Benz on its recommend list of cars. The main complaint was reliability. Even GM had 36% of tested vehicles that were recommended. In particular, when price is added to the equation, these results are really dismal. Like these expensive Junghans watches, Mercedes-Benz makes a great looking car with a high quality appearance but yet, it’s very unreliable. In terms of value for money it’s a terrible deal.

[redled]

It's situations like these that really show what a company is made of. You can create any image in the marketplace, but then you have to be willing to act the part when necessity demands, otherwise your just a fool buying his own hype. This is poor management, plain and simple. It's one thing to make a technical error, it's entirely something else to leave the customer holding the bag. 'The customer is king' is not just a phrase - forget it, or try to reverse the equation, and the customer will have your head on a silver platter.

[collector]

'Just sent email to Junghans in Germany about the Mega 1000 DST problem and my experience with their 'customer service" here in the USA. Hopefully they will respond??? I'll post if / when I hear something back.

If anyone has a contact within Junghans, the contact info would be appreciated.

Also, would appreciate if any DWF forum member located in Germany could possibly send an email to Junghans executives with this threads link. That would possibly lend more weight than someone located here in the USA. Thanks!!!

[collector]

'Just another quick update on my attempts to contact Junghans. (see previous posts)

1. No reply to email sent to Junghans Germany

2. As instructed yesterday, I tried calling the Junghans USA service center this afternnon. Two calls resulted in a never ending series of call prompts. Totally unable to speak to a human being. Left my tel # in the hope someone will call me back.

Anyone else have success / no success in reaching Junghans?

[jblin]

Glad I found this thread. My Junghans Mega MF 4405 did not move an hour ahead until Apr. 1st. I just bought the watch brand new in February. Many dealers are still selling these watches. What's even worse is the new DST was signed into law in Aug. 2005. So Junghans has known about this coming for a year and a half. I find it hard to believe the watch I just bought was manufactured over a year and a half ago. I've contacted a couple of retailers including the one I bought the watch from. They are not aware of the problem. Junghans support is worthless. I've got quick replies from email questions I've had in general about their watches. However, when I ask about the DST issue I never get a reply. They are clearly choosing to ignore this.

[Luca.Brazi]

My next step is to send email to Junghans in Germany as well. I doubt that they’ll respond to my eMail (my email to the U.S. office met with no reply). No doubt, I’ll have to send a regular letter and see if there is a response.

I wonder if we shouldn’t ban together and form a “class” in a class action lawsuit? Any lawyers out there want to do it on a pure contingency fee basis? In any event, I’ve posted a fairly negative review of my watch on Amazon. I gave it 3 out of 5 stars based entirely on the DST shortcoming. Accept for this problem, the watch is fine. But, for an expensive atomic watch, this is a big issue. The point is that watch will require lots of user intervention for about 4 weeks per year. I know that many techno geeks such as me feel like a jilted lover. High quality watch atomic watches have an implicit promise of high quality engineering. Hard coding the DST function (not reading the DST bit) and not having a means of turning it off, represents an unexpected REALLY bad (and cheap) design decision.

[junghans retailer]

I sell Junghans from my retail shop in England and on eBay. Jblin bought his watch from me and I am really disapointed that the watches appear not to receive the American signal.

I have spoken with my agent representing Junghans in the UK (Paul Johnson). He seemed aware of the problem but had no knowledge of why the problem happens.

It was suggested that the Denver transmitter does not know that the date of American time changes was revised by the government and so it sends out the signal on the wrong date. Or that your watches are set for 2pm instead of 2am when it is expecting to receive a signal, therefore the watch is not listening for the signal because it has been set 12 hours wrongly in the 24 hour system.

I think its just guessing or stalling. I cant believe the problem is anything other than the watch. Especially if other Junghans models (or other manufacturers brands) are ok. I would expect a recall, as was done a year or so back with the LCD models before they were relaunched.

It is doubtfull that your watches are old stock (made earlier than the 2005 announcement) most retailers would have sold earlier ones before now. Junghans only make around 250 watches a week, it is more likely your watch will be less than a year old before you buy yours and therefore Junghans would be aware they are selling a watch with a few issues that need resolving.

I would expect Junghans to be very pro active once they are made aware of the problem. Of course, we in the UK will not hear much of it as the problem does not affect the vast majority of our UK customers. I suggest you all contact your retailers and fight your corner with them.

An interesting questions to consider: How many US customers Junghans watches did work and why? Are the faults happening in every version of a particular model or does it depend on where you live? Is your fault happening because you have a faulty watch or because its part of a larger batch? If hundreds have been sold in the US and only a handfull of problems have happened, its hardly the big issue this thread appears to suggest. Or its a huge issue, and thats where it gets interesting.

[jblin]

I know it's not a problem with the WWVB atomic signal. I have several atomic clocks, alarm clocks that all use the same 60kHz signal from WWVB. They all advanced one hour on March 11th. I've also heard that some other brands of watches did not advance until April 1st. Some Junghans models advanced and other models did not. I still think it's an issue with the dates being set inside the watch. It seems the Mega's and 1000's were programmed to advance 1 hour the first Sunday in April and that's what they do.

[collector]

Junghans Retailer,

Please let me set you straight on several points regarding the Junghans Mega 1000: If indeed you are a Junghans Retailer, you are not doing the Junghans Brand name a service by posting information with errors in it on this forum. I would have expected you to work with Junghans Germany on determining the absolute cause of the problem before posting anything on this forum. Please read on.

First, there is NO PROBLEM with the US WVVB transmitter. It does send the encoded time bits correctly. Easily verified by a number of ways; Junghans Mega Steel watches worked correctly (including the one I own), Casio watches worked correctly, other brands of watches AND CLOCKS ALL worked correctly. Also a good # of communication devices depend on the WVVB signal. If the time coding was incorrect, there would be many many many communication problems. I could go on and on about this, bottom line is whomever told you the WVVB signal might be the cause is TOTALY WRONG!!!

Secondly; the Mega 1000's current and home time is / was not set incorrectly. Please re-read my previous post(s). Worked properly all of 2006!!

Third, The problem indeed belongs to Junghan's. They hard coded the DST time change to the calendar instead of the bits in the time signal as the international standard body recommends!!

Fourth, The US Congress passed the DST time change law back in 2005, ample time for watch manafactures to code / re-code IF NECESSARY. Any "Atomic" watches sold in late 2006 or 2007 clearly should have had the necessary changes done to them before sale!!!

Fifth, My Junghans Mega Steel "atomic" PURCHASED IN EARLY 2004 did the DST time change when it was supposed to. So, obviously some Junghans models do work correctly here in the US!!!

Sixth, ALL Junghans model watches which are hard coded to the calendar versus the time bit will have this problem here in the US. So it is not one or two watches but ALL MODELS with the programming based on the calendar versus the time bit.

Seventh, If and when, other countries besides the US change the date when DST changes the problem will become larger and believe me you will hear about it!!!

Lastly, I recommend you contact Junghans Germanys executive offices whom I believe will verify that the problem is indeed within the manner Junghans programmed some models of the Mega 1000.