Inverta

[richard_uk]

So... has anyone got one yet? are there any 'real' pics of it yet?

[collector]

Good question Richard, I started the below link way back in Jan of 2006 (yes 2006) and was an early proponent of the Inverta.

http://www.dwf.nu/viewtopic.php?t=1106& ... abdb0ec88a

The original ealy 2006 banner on the oldpulsar web site said the watch would be available in roughly June of 2006. Yes, I know it takes time to develop something new, but to "pre-announce" a watch as available in approximately 6 months and not have it on the market 18 months later is a big turn off to me and makes me question if I ever would buy one now!!!

[The Time Computer]

So... has anyone got one yet? are there any 'real' pics of it yet?

Richard,

There is and has been for some time now a "real" picure of the inverta on the website. I also posted one on this forum some time ago, hear's the thread, it's been there for a year! http://dwf.nu/viewtopic.php?t=1484

The original ealy 2006 banner on the oldpulsar web site said the watch would be available in roughly June of 2006. Yes, I know it takes time to develop something new, but to "pre-announce" a watch as available in approximately 6 months and not have it on the market 18 months later is a big turn off to me and makes me question if I ever would buy one now!!!

Steve,

I guess I should have replied to this post long ago but the thread sort of died so I left it alone. I didn’t quite understand your comments but I now realize it looks like the bait will keep being put back on the hook until it gets a sufficient bite. I can say I think your math is off a bit, it's 13 months over due, not 20? Please, don't add any more time, it's bad enough.

What I can’t understand is we exchanged several emails about the inverta, I gave you priority communication about the development and I NEVER refused answering your (or anyone’s) emails about the new Time Computer? A ten second email just might have calmed your anxieties with me and/or the inverta!

I have taken no money from anyone, I have many anxious people waiting for the inverta to come to market. I get many emails on a regular basis from many who have just ask! What would make anyone think I am not doing what I can to get the watch to market is beyond me?

With all due respect to the Majestic, the design and electronic module already existed. I also have made many extensive changes to improve the watch, and at the same price I might add. I received the NOA for my design Patent & Trademarks five months ago but have not received the documentation as of yet. You think the inverta development is slow, try working with the US Patent Office. I will not release the watch until the patent and trademark is secured, even if I had everything else ready to go. What happened to Jeff will not happen to me!

I might remind you that in 1970 Hamilton made the same mistake as I have, announcing a new product without it being fully developed. I based the original release on what the engineers told me . . . . and just downright enthusiasm! And then there are the changes and added features that have added to the complexities of the inverta. I am one man, I have no team or huge corporation backing my project.

I have traveled to Asia to meet with the suppliers of some parts for the inverta and to give the project a boost. I have also been desperately trying to find a manufacture for my bracelet. It has been shopped to most all of the Asian continent and now is being circulated through Switzerland. I have worked hard to keep the original design intact, I could have easily wavered and gone down the paved road, but have not. I am doing everything I can to get this watch to market, it is much more than I promised, you'll see! You must understand I have a family and another business to run too. I am very sorry it’s not complete and on your wrist, I apologize, there’s not much I can do at this point!

I will ask you this . . . how would you feel if you paid $500 for watch only to find out the new, more advanced version for the same price was on the market months later?

I know I would be highly ticked off!

Please, hang in there and please, don’t ask me "when", as there is no room for another foot in my mouth!

Dennis L. Klein

[Majestyk]

I don't know why I'm being mentioned here but the module, for the "Majestyk" was a completely new design when released; a one button watch, with seconds and a time setting procedure. To this day I don't know any other company that is using this exact IC design except for a company that was offered my actual watch, sans some changes to it...And might I add, I have never since seen it again since Ebay banned it. Registering the watch was the only feasible thing. To have a world wide patent I would have had to charge...Well...$500. :)

[The Time Computer]

I don't know why I'm being mentioned here but the module, for the "Majestyk" was a completely new design when released

Does anyone know of anything new in the LED pipeline??? ( I do not count the Time Computer as that has been pending since at least Jan of 2006.)

Jeff / Majestyk promised us a 'new" LED watch last spring (2006). Last fall / winter he more than delivered (IMO) on his promise with a very nice good quality LED watch. (I have both the Red and Blue models).

No other "new" LED watch introduced since the "Majestyk" has captured my personal fancy since. Jeff's watch had / has a great bright LED display, nice buttons, seconds display, no pop off back, great design, etc etc. (This is not a commercial for Jeff - only my personal opinion.)

Does anyone know of a 'new", in the pipeline, LED watch that we should be looking forward to??

Jeff,

Because you and your watch is mentioned in a comparison to me and my watch.

No intent to upset you, very sorry if I am incorrect about your module. I was told by an engineer I met in Asia who told me your module was a standard module with slight modifications, he must have seen someone elses watch similar to yours, sorry.

I mentioned the patent mearly because of the copy of your watch I saw listed on eBay, not something I think was right to do. I never followed the auction so didn't know it was removed.

[Majestyk]

No worries Dennis. Honestly, I don't know why our watches are compared. They are totally different and there are many other modern LED's out there. I guess because we both post here?

Anyway the first generation Majestyk module (the prototype which was never sold) was indeed based on a "popular" IC. This IC is still in use on several different LED's and is the 3 button variety with the time and date having their own buttons and a time setting button that worked in conjunction with the other buttons to set the time. I never liked that because it was hard to set and I wanted the "classic" 70's way of displaying and setting the time/date. Both the company and I realized that we had no idea if there was a patent on the original design so a whole new IC was done for the 2nd gen module, complete with a new display as well.

Jeff

[collector]

Dennis,

I fully understand your desire to put a super quality product into the marketplace. In addition, I do understand your requirement not to have it ripped off by anyone.

I also realize I could have written you, but I did not want to be one of the pains in the a....... that constantly bothered you.

I also am sorry for not writing you sooner, but please understand my position / frustration. I visited the Inverta site every two weeks or so as you requested. For a very long while the status only read check back again soon. You updated the site in May saying it was coming. As of today, there is still no update to what you posted on May 1st. That was almost three months ago.

Please understand, I know you are only one person and are very busy. But, perhaps you can post a monthly status, even if it says, something like "nothing new to report". This way at least we would know its still coming and not wonder.

Maybe, I am the only one who feels this way, if so I am sorry.

[The Time Computer]

Maybe, I am the only one who feels this way, if so I am sorry.

You are NOT the only one who feels this way and I absolutely understyand your frustation, I share this frustration too as I am sure you must realize. Time flies by so fast and I just have limited control over the many companies involved in this project. Your right, I get many who regularly contact me about the progress and I do my best to update them. Maybe I should change the time frame to come back to the site to once a month and not two weeks? I have hesitated to put anything up there as to any updates until I have hard facts to back them up. I keep bugging my people to GIVE ME SOMETHING but they don't want to say until they are sure. As I somewhat understand the delays I don't expect anxious customers like your self to understand but I could give you inside information in an email that I just won't put on the website, please, feel free to contact me.

[The Time Computer]

the time computer is nice but at $500 i think its too expensive and details were released too early.people are fed up waiting.i recon any one paying $500 will be gutted in 9 mths time when the price will crash .the technology has already been overtaken.

You certainly have the right to express your opinion but I don’t think I forced the hand of any of the nearly 100 folks that are waiting to spend $500 for the inverta. Yes, a few are having a hard time as time goes by, they just want their watch(s). I understand their frustration but again, I haven’t taken one red cent? I can also say most have understood the delays are in their favor and are not having the frustrations of some.

I can understand that you think it’s too expensive, especially if your comparing it to ANY of the Fossil watches! I am also not really sure what this “Technology” is you’re talking about, it needs some specific clarification?

Think of the new Time Computer as the “inverta VI” as I have revised it six times! Each time I make a change I need a new six-layer PCB, just for starters. It also has to go back to engineering and then get new programming. After that, it needs to be tested and this all takes time. The price has not changed and there are no immediate plans to do so but if it does, it will go up, not down! Everyone who has seen the prototypes thinks my price is too low, maybe so but I will keep it where I promised. Every aspect of this watch is much “more” than I originally announced. Even the packaging has been extensively upgraded to a cost five times the original budget!

I will give you one example why the project has been delayed: While on an 18-hour flight to Asia to finalize the order for production, I had an idea. . . I discussed it with the engineers when I arrived and made the decision to once again implement this new idea into the inverta. This new “Technology” (if you wish to call it that) will allow you to go 15-20 YEARS without resetting the time and settings on your inverta. A second rechargeable battery will take over power to the memory on the IC while you replace the main 3v Lithium. The new 3v main battery will replace any lost power in the backup battery and then set it aside until it is needed again. Now I am not positive but I know of no other digital watch with this “Technology”, certainly not any Fossil. This is just one of the many improvements!

I believe the only “gutted” buyers would be those who would have bought a watch rushed to market only to find a new version soon after . . . . . . I would expect to get criticized for doing this, and rightfully so!

I am asking you to try to understand, if not then I’m sorry, nothing else I can tell you will satisfy.

[LEDluvr]

I hope the Inverta comes to market before the end of the year.
I'm planning to buy one for my wife for Christmas.

Hmmm... come to think of it, she probably wont want to wear a man's watch. And she's not all that keen on LED's. Oh well, I guess I'll have to wear it for her!

[rewolf]

Now we're finally getting into technical details, I hope

This new “Technology” (if you wish to call it that) will allow you to go 15-20 YEARS without resetting the time and settings on your inverta. A second rechargeable battery will take over power to the memory on the IC while you replace the main 3v Lithium. The new 3v main battery will replace any lost power in the backup battery and then set it aside until it is needed again.

Very nice idea, but now you made me curious
Will it keep time so perfectly that it won't be necessary to adjust it in 15-20 years? Does it have some sort of temperature compensation in its oscillator? Or a digitally adjustable oscillator similar to the Synchronar (entry Synchroserious )?
Is it really a battery, or rather a (super)capacitor? A tiny cheap ceramic capacitor of some 10 uF could keep the timekeeping circuit running for a minute; a supercap for hours or even days without battery.

Each time I make a change I need a new six-layer PCB.

SIX layers? Wow! WTH is inside this watch? I mean, you have a main chip, maybe a few external LED driver transistors, and perhaps a little circuit for the touch sensor (although even this can be integrated into the main chip if you use a mixed signal chip like TI's MSP430). I can't imagine why one would need six layers for this (and I've been developing electronic circuits for almot 25 years). Please don't get me wrong, this in not meant as criticism, I'm sure there is a reason for this complexity, just curious, I don't know anything about the working principle of the sensor (but I'd like to), perhaps it's all much more sophisticated than I can imagine (or one of the added features was an MP3 player )

[rewolf]

Hmmm... come to think of it, she probably wont want to wear a man's watch. And she's not all that keen on LED's. Oh well, I guess I'll have to wear it for her!

The design of the Inverta is unisex, IMO, so you will have to get 2 !

[retroleds]

WTH is inside this watch? I mean, you have a main chip, maybe a few external LED driver transistors, and perhaps a little circuit for the touch sensor (although even this can be integrated into the main chip if you use a mixed signal chip like TI's MSP430). I can't imagine why one would need six layers for this (and I've been developing electronic circuits for almot 25 years). Please don't get me wrong, this in not meant as criticism, I'm sure there is a reason for this complexity, just curious, I don't know anything about the working principle of the sensor (but I'd like to), perhaps it's all much more sophisticated than I can imagine (or one of the added features was an MP3 player )

Dennis's watch has a lot of subsystems - "lit logo"(on/off), three alarms, the dual battery programming backup...seems like it would take a mess of traces to accomplish this in a single layer board. He is still working within the size of a watch module.

[The Time Computer]

Now we're finally getting into technical details, I hope
Is it really a battery, or rather a (super)capacitor? A tiny cheap ceramic capacitor of some 10 uF could keep the timekeeping circuit running for a minute; a supercap for hours or even days without battery".

Wow! WTH is inside this watch? I mean, you have a main chip, maybe a few external LED driver transistors, and perhaps a little circuit for the touch sensor (although even this can be integrated into the main chip if you use a mixed signal chip like TI's MSP430). I can't imagine why one would need six layers for this (and I've been developing electronic circuits for almot 25 years). Please don't get me wrong, this in not meant as criticism, I'm sure there is a reason for this complexity, just curious, I don't know anything about the working principle of the sensor (but I'd like to), perhaps it's all much more sophisticated than I can imagine (or one of the added features was an MP3 player )"

Sorry, no MP3 player!

Please understand I am limited as to the technical information I can discuss until the patents are published. I will post what I feel I am comfortable with and promise that when the time is right, I would be happy to give you any information I have.

You need to know I am not an engineer and as with my architectural designs, I let the more knowledgeable people make the decisions in their fields. I just design it and give specifications of what I want. Everyone involved in the TC project has for the most part, given me everything I have asked for. The back up power source is a battery, not a capacitor. I am sure there is a reason they used a battery and not a capacitor.

As for the six-layer PCB, I would relate this to a client coming to me wanting a building that would not fit on the lot they purchased. I would be forced to go upwards in my design, maybe six stories? I think your experience would see that the shape of the TC module limits the area for tracings and one or two layers is compensating for this. I also have a maximum case size with my design as well as the stringent request to keep it as thin as possible. You also know the large Lithium cell takes up a large percentage of the workable area. Your experience will also verify that sometimes it takes more than one component to accomplish one single function. I keep adding features that take more components than the PCB or case were originally designed to do. I take my hat off to my team for somehow finding the room!



Shot at 2007-07-30

[rewolf]

Thanks for the photo!
Now this is definitely NOT one of those cheap China modules! The plastic part looks way better than anything I've seen in a modern LED watch, and the PCB also!

The little Panasonic backup battery, is it a Manganese Lithium rechargeable (like ML614)?
So I see we can't have a photo yet with the plastic removed, or one of the front side ?

@retroleds: yes I know, it does have some more features than usual, but whether you have 1 or 3 or 20 alarms has no influence on board space, and the lit logo is just an additional LED on the front (I guess).
But in the end, for a low-volume product like the Inverta, it can be cheaper to use more PCB layers because engineering costs dominate and it's not worth the effort to try to save 2 layers. The impact on manufacturing cost is quite low anyway.
It's rather a matter of principle, or engineer's ethics

[The Time Computer]

Now this is definitely NOT one of those cheap China modules! The little Panasonic backup battery, is it a Manganese Lithium rechargeable (like ML614)?So I see we can't have a photo yet with the plastic removed, or one of the front side?

Please, stop, all these compliments are hard to take!

rewolf, (or should I call you Mr. Observent) yes, that is the ML614! . . is it possible my engineers used it because a super capacitor has a continuous drain on the main cell? I am sure something as easy as a capacitor would have been used if they could, they are far too smart not to.

Now, since I can't deliver the watch to all those who have been so patiently waiting, I can at the least give rewolf some satisfaction. I will share this first version PCB design with you but please keep this in mind. Ten plumbers will get the water and drain pipes from point "A" to point "B" ten different ways. I am sure this may not be the same rout you would have ran the traces. For those looking in, each color is a different layer. I see rewolf printing this out and drawing in the components, no foul as far as I can see rewolf!



Shot at 2007-07-30

[rewolf]

Oh, this looks somehow familiar
Well, for a short moment I thought about magnifying any analizing it, but then I realized (as you wrote) that it's not the same version as the photo (e.g. it doesn't seem have the the test points on the rear side (blue layer) ), and what is it good for to re-engineer an already outdated design ?
Nice plumbing though , and probably a challenge (read 'nightmare') to route on 4 layers. I see the problem is that the LED chips are all over the place, reducing available space for the vias (for those looking in: the grey circles where the traces change layers). And every via blocks traces on all layers...

... yes, that is the ML614! . . is it possible my engineers used it because a super capacitor has a continuous drain on the main cell? I am sure something as easy as a capacitor would have been used if they could, they are far too smart not to.

Both have leakage currents, but the ML probaly less (I have no practical experience yet with this battery type, but the datasheet says it decays steadily to 1uA or less). Plus it is smaller than any supercap I know. Don't know about battery lifetime (LiIon e.g. is said to have 4-5 years).
The highest value caramic capacitor (100uF) is still smaller than the ML614, has unlimited lifetime and absolutely no leakage, but it can power the timekeeping circuit for 1 minute max (assuming it takes 1uA): enough time to change the battery, but little headroom.
So the ML614 looks like a good decision after all.

BTW guessing the ML614 wasn't that difficult: Panasonic is written on it, Lithium Manganese (ML) is the technology that matches best with the Lithium main battery (voltage-wise), and assuming the main battery is a CR2032 you can estimate the diameter of the backup battery

Ok, final question:
The 'f' (upper left) segment of the first digit seems to be missing in the PCB design. Normally it is not needed because the 1st digit only shows 1,2,3. But: when you turn the display upside-down (one of the key features), the first digit becomes the last, and then it NEEDS that missing segment. As this is the 1st version PCB, does this mean that the 'Inverta' feature came in later?

Oh, talking about features: for the European market 24h display and date in DD-MM format would be really nice. I miss this on many watches, even modern LCDs.

[The Time Computer]

Ok, final question:
The 'f' (upper left) segment of the first digit seems to be missing in the PCB design. Normally it is not needed because the 1st digit only shows 1,2,3. But: when you turn the display upside-down (one of the key features), the first digit becomes the last, and then it NEEDS that missing segment. As this is the 1st version PCB, does this mean that the 'Inverta' feature came in later?

Oh, talking about features: for the European market 24h display and date in DD-MM format would be really nice. I miss this on many watches, even modern LCDs.

For those looking in, we have a winner! I am so impressed rewolf as you have found the major flaw that fast. The upper left segment is indeed missing, this would also only allow my Countup and Countdown timers to display 39:59. How did this happen? . . the PCB designer was only thinking about the typical 24 hour display in which there would be no need for the upper left segment. Your good rewolf, really good!

This was the first reason for a setback, this was an honest mistake, it also is a byproduct of being half way around the world.

Now, I told you I would tell you what I felt comfortable with so I can tell you the inverta is 12-24 hour and has the MM-DD or DD-MM option!

FYI, inversion was from day one. After wearing a Pulsar so many years I was constantly asked how it worked. One would only see the futuristic watch with no face and ask to see the time. No more contorting with the new TC.

Almost forgot, the ML614 has a shelf life of ten years and can be recharged 500 times! To answer your next question, yes, it's replacable.

[rewolf]

...The upper left segment is indeed missing, this would also only allow my Countup and Countdown timers to display 39:59. How did this happen? . . the PCB designer was only thinking about the typical 24 hour display in which there would be no need for the upper left segment. Your good rewolf, really good!

Thank you for the compliments . Maybe you found the reason why my colleagues always ask ME to do the design reviews...

...the inverta has is 12-24 hour and has the MM-DD and the DD-MM option...

:-D

Almost forgot, the ML614 has a shelf life of ten years and can be recharged 500 times! To answer your next question, yes, it's replacable.

:-D

[Majestyk]

Your good rewolf, really good!

That's why I got him to make one of my watches constantly display time, date and seconds (over and over), for display purposes at shows.

Using AA batteries of course. :)

Jeff

[retroleds]

A slightly different, better picture.

[holly35]

has anyone noticed anything missing from all those colours to pick from?
led watches are supposed to have beautiful black/red crystals with lazer sharp red digits.why hasnt it been included in the basic line up?
it would be stunning.