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The new Seiko EPD ´homage´

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LEDluvr

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: The new Seiko EPD ´homage´

Post16 Feb 2011, 00:00

The G757 was fár from GS level of hardware finish and if it would cost 2K$ and upwards if it were upgraded to there now


Yes, I realize that the G757 was not a "Grand Seiko" watch in terms of fit and finish, raretity of materials used, etc. I was just suggesting that
IF Seiko wanted to make a digital watch for the "Grand Seiko" category, the Top of the Line, so to speak, then a reboot of the (still) highly sought after G757 would be a good idea. :-)

I like this e-ink masterpiece - I really do. I have always been a big Seiko fan. But at $1300 USD - I'd have to LOVE it.
I don't like it that much, nevermind love.

I wouldn't be surprised if Casio comes out with some interesting (and probably plastic cased) e-ink creations. Afterall, that is was their answer to Seiko in the early 80's and this marketing strategy earned them a large share of the digital watch market.
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Re: : The new Seiko EPD ´homage´

Post16 Feb 2011, 09:46

rewolf wrote:If I keep on asking or try to research everything I don't understand that you're telling, this will never end ... (like: what's 9Fxx, S770, S760? Movements I suppose, but what kind, and how are they related to the EPD? I can't stop asking questions... big problem sometimes... ;-) :mrgreen: )


So basically you doubt what I opinion because yoú lack the basic understanding of what I am talking about.

About the 9Fxx (jump to page 6.); http://www.webchronos.net/special/2010/ ... index.html

Again; I canot help it if you cannot find the Brightz range.
It is the Seiko high end model range; thé most crucial for Seiko as it is where it needs to go.
Grand Seiko is a signature range but the Shizukuishi atelier has a very limited production capacity only. Going international with GS is just another step to raise the international price ceiling for the Seiko brand.
The Brightz is big bugs mass production; the sector where profit is to be made. It is the range that Seiko needs to sell internationally in the tracks of Grand Seiko.
The range has been JDM only save for a féw watches. The Ananta and now EPD being the most known.
Look at http://www.seiko-watch.co.jp/bz/phoenix ... /index.php
This is as you can see the Phoenix part of the Seiko Japan on line Brightz catalogue.

You can find the brand strategy, including the why!! of spring drive, explained in the ´Journey in Time´ that you can find in pdf format on line. Seiko hás to move upwards with it´s ´popular´ price range if it is to survive as a major watch manufacturer.
This is why the EPD will not be develloped vertically downwards for some time yet.

Now questions are a VERY good thing. The answers are below your finger tips.
One does not know what one does not know. Knowing that one knows little is grand understanding.
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Re: : The new Seiko EPD ´homage´

Post16 Feb 2011, 10:05

LEDluvr wrote:I wouldn't be surprised if Casio comes out with some interesting (and probably plastic cased) e-ink creations. Afterall, that is was their answer to Seiko in the early 80's and this marketing strategy earned them a large share of the digital watch market.


The biggest stroke was a jump that Seiko totally missed.
Seiko management had not foreseen the massive interest in especially olid state quartz from Taiwan and HongKong manufacturers.
They furthermore kept their proud home base production.
Casio (and Citizen) were far quicker to relocate production capacity to lower cost countries.
The LCD sector was a sector where Seiko hád to bail out. This was a gréat loss of everything since it was a range with massive sales in which they had been at the forefront of developments.

A very interesting site to surf and dig into is http://www.sii.co.jp/corp/eg/biz/index.html

Yes Casio will enter E-ink too as the digital display is their mainstay but as you obeserve will be definitely lower in the vertical product range.
Seiko at the moment has a serious head start with the non segmented EPD matrix though.
Remember that they launched the first watch with it in 2005!
Seiko would be most unwise (and they are not) to develop the EPD watch vertically downwards when their stategy for the past 10 years has been aimed úpwards.

Anyway, the best ´proof of the pudding´ I can think of is: http://shop.ebay.com/?_from=R40&_trksid ... Categories
Just imagine this in 1999; a main stream production Seiko model range with 1K$ - 6K$ watches.

Also have a look at:
http://cgi.ebay.com/SEIKO-BRIGHTZ-Atomi ... 5195efd67b
This is the ´Limited Edition´ of the anologue counterpart of the EPD. Look at the catlogue numbers. SDGA and SAGA; Digital and Analogue.
Wether one personally likes, appreciates of values the EPD as such is totally beside the point. The hardware is this range of product :idea:
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Re: : The new Seiko EPD ´homage´

Post16 Feb 2011, 11:37

rewolf wrote:PS: I have a case holder and press for snap-on backs :-)


All you need it the SBPG00x and SDGA00x.

The model is appearantly selling well in Germany so you maybe you can find a curious owner at a practical distance.
Also Seiko Germany has a demo module which is being sent along horologic ´journalists´.
Drop them a line wether you would be allowed to do an intimate technical review. You never know.
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: The new Seiko EPD ´homage´

Post16 Feb 2011, 18:31

Here is one with my El Cheapo chinese running matrix LCD. This one is quite a fun watch with the running display but is iv ERY badly to read and a bit less light of angle makes it illegible. It is also off about 30 seconds/month. Still, a lot of value for money.

It also shows that the EPD is not so large as it often appears because of the rimless sapphire.

Image

p.s. ´better méasure the windows´ I thought and the cristal of the No-Ink actually has LESS surface :eek: It is only 2 mm. wider but 3 mm. lówer than that of the EPD....
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: The new Seiko EPD ´homage´

Post16 Feb 2011, 20:33

Thanks for those Seiko links Huertecilla -I'll explore them for more info.
I have always had a great appreciation for Seko's digitals. IMO they are the top of the line, sure Omega and Tissot made a few, but only a few.
:-(

Seiko management had not foreseen the massive interest in especially olid state quartz from Taiwan and HongKong manufacturers.
They furthermore kept their proud home base production.


Seiko may not have seen this move but they clearley decided to keep production in Japan instead of 'offshoring' it to Taiwan. (Now days they have factories in Malaysia and China, possibly ohter countries too.)
I think Seiko may have decided to keep production in Japan in the past because they wanted to maintain the highest quality controls possible, thereby making their watches 'the best digital watch' available. And clearly they were in the 1970's and 80's. It seems they have the same philosphy today with their new EPD creation.
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Re: : The new Seiko EPD ´homage´

Post16 Feb 2011, 22:28

Huertecilla wrote:... Brightz ... The range has been JDM only save for a féw watches. The Ananta and now EPD being the most known.
Look at http://www.seiko-watch.co.jp/bz/phoenix ... /index.php
This is as you can see the Phoenix part of the Seiko Japan on line Brightz catalogue.
Ah I see, great, thanks. The EPD is apparantly neither Brightz Phoenix nor Brightz Ananta, but simply Brightz. Here's the correct link, finally - phew :-).
If JDM means Japanese Dometic market it explains why all I found about Brightz is in Japanese only, and why all non-Japanese Seiko websites return zero hits for "Brightz" ......

Huertecilla wrote:Now questions are a VERY good thing. The answers are below your finger tips.
One does not know what one does not know. Knowing that one knows little is grand understanding.
I'm not a particular fan of Donald Rumsfeld, but one of my favourite quotes is attributed to him:
There are things we know that we know, things we know that we don't know, and things that we don't know we don't know.

That is: knowing what I know now, I didn't know that I didn't know. Now I know things that I didn't know I didn't want to know :mrgreen: - well, isn't that bright(z)? ;-)
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Re: : The new Seiko EPD ´homage´

Post16 Feb 2011, 22:50

Huertecilla wrote:
rewolf wrote:If I keep on asking or try to research everything I don't understand that you're telling, this will never end ... (like: what's 9Fxx, S770, S760? Movements I suppose, but what kind, and how are they related to the EPD? I can't stop asking questions... big problem sometimes... ;-) :mrgreen: )

So basically you doubt what I opinion because yoú lack the basic understanding of what I am talking about.

Err, no, absolutely not, for 2 reasons:
1. I didn't doubt what you opinion (it's your right to believe anything), I just tried to make clear MY opinion,
2. I understand what you're talking about, but I don't know any of the names and models you mentioned.

I'm not a Seiko man, and this is not really a Seiko forum. That is, I (and other participants) can not be expected know all the Seiko model names and module numbers that you dropped ;-)
Imagine that we started mentioning Synchronar Mk I/II/II/IV, Pulsar, P1, P2, P3, P4, Dress, Sports, Auto-Command, Touch-Command, Date Command, Omega TC1, TC2, 2900, 3100, 3120, 901, 902, Hamilton, QED, GP Casquette 9931 module 396 vs 397, HP-01, Novus, Hughes, dotted segment, Optel DSM or FED, etc. You KNOW all these terms if you are into vintage digital watches and can make conversation with fellow collectors based on this knowledge - but if not, you'll only understand that it's probably about watch models and modules, but you can associate nothing with it, thus no real conversation possible.
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: The new Seiko EPD ´homage´

Post17 Feb 2011, 09:56

Meanwhile I keep wondering if EPD will overcome The Great Appreciation Barrier and see the solid state quartz back in 18k hardware again.

In the first years of LED there was a plethora of models with this technology in solid gold.
The LCD was not given the privilegde. There is only óne (limited to two dozen) model which is the proverbial exception to the rule if ever there was one. Not even Omega went there!

This, ánd about the point Rewolf made that nobody has put a photo of the S760 (the Seiko Spirit SBPG00x radiawave contral solar LCD engine) or the S770 (the Seiko Brightz SDGA00x radiowave control solar EPD engine) on the web yet.
The S760 is over two years around now and even the F-91W engine is dissected on the web.
If only I had a caseback press :-(
Like I wrote, there is an oportunity Rewolf :idea:
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Re: : The new Seiko EPD ´homage´

Post17 Feb 2011, 10:06

rewolf wrote:
Huertecilla wrote:... Brightz ... The range has been JDM only save for a féw watches. The Ananta and now EPD being the most known.
Look at http://www.seiko-watch.co.jp/bz/phoenix ... /index.php
This is as you can see the Phoenix part of the Seiko Japan on line Brightz catalogue.
Ah I see, great, thanks. The EPD is apparantly neither Brightz Phoenix nor Brightz Ananta, but simply Brightz. Here's the correct link, finally - phew :-)


My compliments for finding the latter page!

Like I write both the Ananta and EPD are the non JDM exceptions to the Brightz model line.
The cúrrent exceptions since Seiko is moving their international range up market.
A confusing element is that marketing renames model lines. The Brightz name is likely to be ´westernised´.
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Re: : The new Seiko EPD ´homage´

Post27 Feb 2011, 02:31

rewolf wrote:Last week I saw it (black PVD version) in a local jeweler's shop window and entered the shop immediately. To cut it short: after 20 minutes I left the shop without the watch. Mainly for 3 reasons:

1. No stopwatch. Unbelievable, 5 buttons and no stopwatch. Don't tell me about display limitations - in setting mode the display shows seconds, so it could also do this in stopwatch mode.

2. Bracelet. The watch is nice, but the bracelet looks and feels cheap. Too narrow for the watch size and not stiff, feels like worn-out from 10 years of use. Not what I expect for 990 EUR. And you can't just attach a different one, because the attachment is non-standard.

3. Choice of font: I'd like larger digits (there's enough space) and a nicer font. It is a WATCH, purpose = show the time, so why waste lots of space on the display to show ... nothing? Compare this:
ImageImageImage



Besides that: e.ink is a great technology for watch diplays. I've been wearing another e-ink watch for the last 3 months. The Seiko's display is better than Phosphor's.

Solar + RC is great. Finally the hassle-free watch - never adjust, never change batteries, never lubricate. Just wear and admire 8-).

And last but not least: AFAIK it's the first solar-powered watch with backlight! Finally!

Now if the solve at least point 1 and 2 I'll buy one. For sure. I've been waitng for this for years.

Just for reference another thread on this forum: http://dwf.nu/viewtopic.php?t=3802

Love the larger fonts rewolf
The SDGA doesn't have a real backlight, it does have two LEDs for lighting but they are on the side and shine on the front of the display just light the older incandescent lights on LCD watches. They had to do it that way because the EPD does not let light shine through it like LCDs do.
Oh BTW, The SBPG does have an EL backlight so it maybe the first solar watch with a backlight.
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Re: : The new Seiko EPD ´homage´

Post27 Feb 2011, 02:34

rewolf wrote:Last week I saw it (black PVD version) in a local jeweler's shop window and entered the shop immediately. To cut it short: after 20 minutes I left the shop without the watch. Mainly for 3 reasons:

1. No stopwatch. Unbelievable, 5 buttons and no stopwatch. Don't tell me about display limitations - in setting mode the display shows seconds, so it could also do this in stopwatch mode.

2. Bracelet. The watch is nice, but the bracelet looks and feels cheap. Too narrow for the watch size and not stiff, feels like worn-out from 10 years of use. Not what I expect for 990 EUR. And you can't just attach a different one, because the attachment is non-standard.

3. Choice of font: I'd like larger digits (there's enough space) and a nicer font. It is a WATCH, purpose = show the time, so why waste lots of space on the display to show ... nothing? Compare this:
ImageImageImage



Besides that: e.ink is a great technology for watch diplays. I've been wearing another e-ink watch for the last 3 months. The Seiko's display is better than Phosphor's.

Solar + RC is great. Finally the hassle-free watch - never adjust, never change batteries, never lubricate. Just wear and admire 8-).

And last but not least: AFAIK it's the first solar-powered watch with backlight! Finally!

Now if the solve at least point 1 and 2 I'll buy one. For sure. I've been waitng for this for years.

Just for reference another thread on this forum: http://dwf.nu/viewtopic.php?t=3802

Love the larger fonts rewolf
The SDGA doesn't have a real backlight, it does have two LEDs for lighting but they are on the side and shine on the front of the display just light the older incandescent lights on LCD watches. They had to do it that way because the EPD does not let light shine through it like LCDs do.
Oh BTW, The SBPG does have an EL backlight so it maybe the first solar watch with a backlight.
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Re: : The new Seiko EPD ´homage´

Post28 Feb 2011, 12:36

morelite wrote:The SDGA doesn't have a real backlight, it does have two LEDs for lighting but they are on the side and shine on the front of the display just light the older incandescent lights on LCD watches. They had to do it that way because the EPD does not let light shine through it like LCDs do.


Because the EPD reallyis just like very clear large font printed paper, it is véry clearly visible in weak light conditions.
I there is enough light for the human eye, there is enough to read the display.

Only when one can not really see without additional lighting, the watch needs that too. In an environment with even weak artificial lighting that is enough to read the dial.
This means that one very rarely needs the led lights to read the display.
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: The new Seiko EPD ´homage´

Post28 Feb 2011, 14:53

Remember the three buttons up the front and surprisingly with indentations containing black/white colour coded paint?

Obviously an homage to the first LCD by Seiko, the 06LC which uses red and blue colour coded paint in indentations in the button.
To my surprised I have traced it back even further!

It goes back to thé first LCD ever :eek:
To the BWC Dynamic Scattering Mode LCD with the Optel module. This watch only júst missed out being the first solid state digital to the Pulsar P1.
The release for public sale was delayed because of unexpected production glitches and by the time these were reliably solved the P1 was already on the market.
Pulsar appearantly had been a bit more hasty since most were returned with problems and the modules upgraded or exchanged for a later one.

Anyway, here are the dots:

Image
Source; crazywatches.pl


On the BWC it makes sense as the crowns should not be rotated, only ´switched´to either side to adjust the display. The line and dots should match up. Blue for ´cool´ retard, red for ´hot´ forward.
Since on the 06LC the colour code does not really make any sense and it appeared also ónly on this one it may very well be that Seiko gave a salute to the BWC with it.

I find it really 8-) to trace the roots of the new EPD like this.
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: The new Seiko EPD ´homage´

Post27 Apr 2011, 02:17

Based on rewolf's information, I will probably not buy this watch for some time.

I understand how this is an amazingly innovative watch, but that's in the display department. Solar recharging and atomic sync have been around for quite some time and pretty much perfected by the likes of Casio and Citizen. Plus, an LCD watch maker like Casio packs their watches with useful functions. Stopwatch and countdown timer are pretty much standard. I can kind of understand why Seiko omitted the stopwatch, because the display would be incapable of capturing the scrolling of fractional seconds. But at least with a countdown timer, nothing more is needed beyond full seconds.

And as noted, the cost of making these screens is not that high. There was substantial R&D put into it by a 3rd party (E-ink), which I suspect Seiko is licensing. Give it a couple more years, and you'll see these displays refresh fast enough for stopwatch functions.

Lastly, the bracelet is not something that should be skimped upon for a watch at this price point. At the very least, use a standard lug setup so you can swap in another band. The fact that Seiko made the connectors proprietary and furnished a substandard bracelet really bothers me. !@@!

Seiko did a great job with the display. It looks fantastic. And I like the button implementation on the case. But for all of the outstanding issues, I'm going to wait for an updated version...
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: The new Seiko EPD ´homage´

Post27 Apr 2011, 07:36

Thank you for a great read. Was very interesting to a "non fan" of LCD face type looking watches.
I like the look of the watch very much, but I would not pay the current price for it. I'll wait for the price to drop which in time I'm sure it will. If it drops below £50 then I may be tempted but £900 on this is just madness and another dent into my savings for my GP drivers watch that I want.

I like the idea of LED watches tho, if you press the time button no matter what angle or ambient light level you can tell the time. My watch tells the time my smartphone does all my modern day gadgetry. Thats how it will always be for me...

BTW Nice to hear you ran in the 09' TT , my wife and family are Manx and I visit there atleast twice a year. We lived at the bottom of the hairpin bend in Ramsey.
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Re: : The new Seiko EPD ´homage´

Post27 Apr 2011, 17:16

cheeksterr wrote:I like the idea of LED watches tho, if you press the time button no matter what angle or ambient light level you can tell the time.


I like particularly the dot LEDs but thát is not correct.
LED is no match for sunny skies outside.Not even in the shade. It needs serious shading in the design of the case to be sort of readeable under favourable conditions outside.

I made a comparative ´test´ recently and put it on here somewhere I thought.
LED simply does not come into it outside.
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Re: : The new Seiko EPD ´homage´

Post27 Apr 2011, 17:35

xevious wrote:Lastly, the bracelet is not something that should be skimped upon for a watch at this price point. At the very least, use a standard lug setup so you can swap in another band. The fact that Seiko made the connectors proprietary and furnished a substandard bracelet really bothers me.


It is not substandard in the lest. Wolfgang would have líked it to be wider, that´s all.
I think 19 mm at the clasp end is wide enough.

The lug set up is ergonomic and very neatly made. Have you séén it?

The bracelet actually is one escalon bétter than other bracelets at a slighly higher Brightz price level.

About the stopwatch the display it not the issue.
There is no technical reason why it has no stopwatch down to 1/10.000th of a second.
It wíll display anything the clock an time; it will just need 0.3 of a second the timed interval.
Hardly a problem since the human mind need about 0.1 of a second to register a digital number and will need considerably more time to work out the interval displayed by a set of analogue dials.
The Seiko EPD has no stopwatch function for márketing reasons.
If that is a problem than so be it.

I see the EPD as a luxury watch. As such it offers stunning value, performance and functionality for money compared to anything Swiss or the Grand Seikos I have. Neither of which are chronos.

Surf the web and you will find several owners of quality watches including the EPD who rate the latter like I do:

Image

Here is another:

Image

RMind; these are pictures of WIS that own luxury Swiss watches, mechanical/quartz Grand Seikos and the EPD.

You are free to have other priorities and preferences; free to not like the thing, but please do get the perspective correct.
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Re: : The new Seiko EPD ´homage´

Post27 Apr 2011, 17:48

cheeksterr wrote: If it drops below £50 then I may be tempted


You can already buy E-ink for sub 100.

Seiko will probably release cheaper wathes with e-ink too.

Prices for thís level of quality hardware will not drop.
Prices will drop but you will get a cheaper watch too :idea:

It is the same as expecting Omega Seamaster of Rolex Sub prices to drop because Vostok Amphibians offer the same technology and functionality for 70$.
Or expecting a Seiko MarineMaster to become avialable at low end Seiko prices.

As for the pre-owned prices:
Recently the first one (from Seya) sold pre-owned on ebay.
It went for only 25 Euros below what I paid (from Higuchi) for mine including shipping :eek:
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Re: : The new Seiko EPD ´homage´

Post27 Apr 2011, 22:11

Huertecilla wrote:...LED ... needs serious shading in the design of the case to be sort of readeable under favourable conditions outside.
Exactly - like the GP Casquette, and maybe the Synchronar :-)
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Re: : The new Seiko EPD ´homage´

Post27 Apr 2011, 23:54

Huertecilla wrote:It is not substandard in the lest. Wolfgang would have líked it to be wider, that´s all. I think 19 mm at the clasp end is wide enough.

The lug set up is ergonomic and very neatly made. Have you séén it?

The bracelet actually is one escalon bétter than other bracelets at a slighly higher Brightz price level.

Thanks for adding your input, Huertecilla. I'm glad to hear that you find the construction of the bracelet to be better than average at this price. I wish I could see the watch first hand before buying it, but unfortunately it is not a USA market watch. I hope this changes, although this isn't the first time I've seen an item produced for the Japanese/Asian/Euro market that never made it to the USA. Still... at least it is not a limited edition. I will be keeping my eyes out for increased availability in time and hopefully a little more discounting.

True what you say about the fact that the display has the flexibility of showing more digits for a precise stopwatch function. What I was noting is the time delay in display (0.3 second) which might work against the idea for the maker. For the user, it shouldn't be a problem as one doesn't press the button based on fractional seconds seen, but by the change in activity being monitored. I can see what you mean by Seiko omitting the stopwatch function so as to not detract from the luxury of the model. It's not a deal breaker for me. But the bracelet might be if the adjustments possible do not work for my wrist size. I am still keeping this watch as a future candidate. :-)
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: The new Seiko EPD ´homage´

Post28 Apr 2011, 00:38

Xevious, have you seen the Seiko "Spirit" - model SBFG001?
It's an LCD not an EPD, but is sho' looks nice. And it's much less $ than the EPD. It also has solar and atomic synch features.
It's on my wish list......


Image

The SBPG003 is the black verison.
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