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Suitable 32.768KHz oscillator for Pulsar Modules...read on..

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retroleds

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Re: : Suitable 32.768KHz oscillator for Pulsar Modules...rea

Post11 Jul 2010, 02:07

azimuth_pl wrote:not sensitive to temperature in technical terms thus not a thermistor.
!
Test for the reasonable situations - room temperature(storage) and body temperature(wearing) and there is a very definite change in resistance. Regardless of what I called it, the function is the same. Splitting hairs just leaves you bald. Like a pig.
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: Suitable 32.768KHz oscillator for Pulsar Modules...read on

Post11 Jul 2010, 06:56

btw. the largest quantities of this rare metal is in.... Oz!

Yeah, I've got piles of the stuff in my back yard. Comes in real handy for evaporating onto ceramic substrates (after combining with nitride of course) !

NO - it is this band of hot chicks from Australia!!
http://www.myspace.com/tantalum

RWAR - talking about wanting to visit down under!

All the girls in my street look like like this, if not better :-D

Rgds.
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Re: : Suitable 32.768KHz oscillator for Pulsar Modules...rea

Post11 Jul 2010, 12:08

azimuth_pl wrote:now I recall :)
that print screen is from the Pulsar promo video I digitilized years ago on disc.
Thanks a lot for doing this! Now that it's even on youtube it might become more known.

azimuth_pl wrote:there are exactly 15 if you only count the spiral ones, consider Ry as two separate and include R3.
those 15 are clearly marked with a darker color on the diagram in the video.
that means that the rest can also be sputtered but not tantallum.
You mean not count the 7 Rc resistors?
That is, 1xR2 + 1xR3 + 4xRb + 7xRd (under display) + Rx + Ry (count as one) = 15. Bingo!
But I believe that the 7 Rc resistors are made with the same technolgy as the rest: they consist of 6 traces in parallel, each trace appears to be the size of R3, and R3=439Ω, i.e. 6x R3 in parallel have R3/6=73Ω - now compare this with Rc=75Ω.

azimuth_pl wrote:I'd say that "regulate" means "operate". the whole concept is based on elementary knowledge: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierce_oscillator
Yes, this is the standard crystal osillator circuit still used today. But it does not contain any Rx or Rx resistor (or solenoid). That's why I'd like to see a circuit diagram.

azimuth_pl wrote:this is a more detailed pic of the ones under the display:
That looks great! Do you have this in higher resolution (especially the part with the bare ceramic carrier)?
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Re: : Suitable 32.768KHz oscillator for Pulsar Modules...rea

Post11 Jul 2010, 13:03

retroleds wrote:
azimuth_pl wrote:not sensitive to temperature in technical terms thus not a thermistor.
!
Test for the reasonable situations - room temperature(storage) and body temperature(wearing) and there is a very definite change in resistance. Regardless of what I called it, the function is the same. Splitting hairs just leaves you bald. Like a pig.

I think anyone that finds a material that changes resistance by a factor of 4 or 5 from 22°C to 36°C and yet at 80°C comes back to its 30°C value within 1% is due for the Nobel Prize.

Quote from Ed's original posting: Small sensor is 85k at room temp - just breathing on it makes the value plummet quickly to 40K(continued blowing will get it down to 20k)....almost immediatly starts climbing again. Blow on it again, watch it fall again. Large sensor is 35-37k at "room temp", drops to 12-14k at body temp.(determined by using a plastic drinking straw and blowing very gently but almost continuously on the sensor while testing.)

Ed, what you measured was maybe not the temperature-, but the moisture-dependency of the resistors. Human breath isn't exactly dry air...

BTW This is not splitting hairs, but trying to find out the truth about a very crucial part of the Pulsar circuit.
And as for bald pigs: ;-)
Image Image
(please consider the right image as a winking smilie, not as a bald pig ;-) )
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: Suitable 32.768KHz oscillator for Pulsar Modules...read on

Post11 Jul 2010, 14:23

forgot the R2 :) so there is no need to split Ry in two.
and if the total is 15 we have to discard the 7 Rc, especially that the movie clearly shows the 15 marked in dark orange.
a better pic has been uploaded in place of the previous one.
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Re: : Suitable 32.768KHz oscillator for Pulsar Modules...rea

Post11 Jul 2010, 15:45

azimuth_pl wrote:forgot the R2 :) so there is no need to split Ry in two.
and if the total is 15 we have to discard the 7 Rc, especially that the movie clearly shows the 15 marked in dark orange.
a better pic has been uploaded in place of the previous one.

I had a close look at the new pic (thanks for uploading it):

a) I still believe that the 7 Rc resistors are made be the same process as the others, based on appearance on the pic and on analysis of trace length vs. resistance. The movie picture quality is rather poor, one can't even see the comb structure of the 7 Rc resistors on it. I wouldn't give too much on it.

b) most importantly: It seems that the 2 large resistors Rx and Ry are not part of the oscillator circuit at all!

I ask again: we need a circuit diagram! I can't believe that none of all the Pulsar experts here has one (or is willing to disclose it).
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: Suitable 32.768KHz oscillator for Pulsar Modules...read on

Post11 Jul 2010, 16:01

I've added a link to part two of the video, just in case you didn't realise that it is also on my You Tube channel.
Thanks for digitizing it Piotr. I hope you don't mind my sharing it?
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: Suitable 32.768KHz oscillator for Pulsar Modules...read on

Post11 Jul 2010, 16:32

a diagram drawn from the circuit will very likely be available soon but a factory diagram would be even better.

no worries Ian, I just digitized (digitalized?) an old VHS tape that was copied from an even older celluloid film.
the whole idea is to share the content and keep the Pulsar dream alive.
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: Suitable 32.768KHz oscillator for Pulsar Modules...read on

Post11 Jul 2010, 16:51

To backup my statement b) above, I edited Piotr's pic (sorry, it became bit big):
Image

Green and cyan are the obvious connections to the quartz crystal (Xc), and usually these are the only osciallator connections.
The Trimmer, as well as C1, is conncted to GND (V-) with one terminal, and to the Xc with the other, as usual in a Pierce oscillator.
There appears to be no connection of Rx and Ry to the oscillator circuitry OUTSIDE the chip - maybe inside, but at least for Ry I doubt this. Piotr's friend called it a "pull-up +Uz" - I don't know exactly what he means with +Uz, but Ry does look like a pullup for the reed switches.
BTW Piotr's friend gave names to voltages and components, so I'm sure he also made a circuit diagram. It would prove helpful!

So IF I'm right with the assumption the neither Rx nor Ry are part of the oscillator, then the question whether they are for temperature compensation or not is a moot point...
Last edited by rewolf on 12 Jul 2010, 21:15, edited 1 time in total.
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: Suitable 32.768KHz oscillator for Pulsar Modules...read on

Post11 Jul 2010, 17:16

Lots of things to comment on;

1. You only need nano-Henries of inductance to quiet down a cmos oscillator- RCA quoted typical parasitic oscillation frequencies of 1.8-2Mhz for misbehaving inverter stages.

2. Tantalum Nitride resistors are brilliant till they get contaminated- they should have a protective coating over them, but even this can be eroded by corrosives and in digital watch batteries we have one of the worst corrosives around- Potassium Hydroxide (or Sodium Hydroxide) which apart from being corrosive is highly conductive and hygroscopic (pulls water out of the air). So puffing on a contaminated resistor will almost certainly change the value. This is an adverse side effect and nothing to do with the function of the watch. And if they are TN they should be extremely temperature stable and not exhibit any of the observed effects unless badly contaminated.

4. Self heating in the module is negligible- the module draws about 5 microamps at 3 volts which is 15 microwatts to be dissipated- if you regard the board as a heatsink then the thermal resistance is going to be around 80C/watt (that is, every watt of input power would raise the temperature by 80 degrees centigrade). So 15 microwatts would raise the temperature by 0.0012 centigrade.

5. When the voice over artiste in the Pulsar video says "regulate the watch" my view is that he means the TN resistors will set the operating voltage/current ranges of the device rather than alter the timekeeping accuracy. The laser is simply cutting the masks for the high temperature evap process, but, hey, the magic word "laser" always sounds good in promo videos.

6. Yep, the twin trimmers do regulate the frequency, but check out the test equipment they are using to check the frequency of the "aged" crystal- lovely HP frequency counter which was (almost) state of the art in 1972, but I seem to remember this was a twin oven quartz timebase model (when operating autonomously) so a little hard to see how Pulsar could have adjusted their watches to the claimed accuracy using something like this.

7. Tracing out the circuit from the Piotr's excellent photos is easy- nothing actually that odd about any of it. Piotr's engineer friend suggests that Rx & Ry are pull-ups, I now think they are self-inductive "float" resistors designed to isolate the oscillator from the power supply (and stop timekeeping twitches due to the LED switch currents) as well as reducing the tendency to self-oscillate. Notice how close (adjacent) they are to the crystal/trimmer capacitor input terminals which is exactly where they should be for maximum effect.

8. And one final bit of mischief- did Pulsar actually design the module or did they specify what they required to RCA (and probably did a cross licence deal on the patents involved) who actually designed the board and chip?
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: Suitable 32.768KHz oscillator for Pulsar Modules...read on

Post11 Jul 2010, 19:51

I hoped you would chime in and set this straight ;-)

Ad 7.: This would mean that what I coloured red in the picture above (where the reed switches are connected to) is the positive supply rail, blue is negative (as indicated), and Rx and Ry connect these to the IC's oscillator supply input pins - correct?
Now it all makes sense, and it also explains easily why the oscillator fails when these resistors fail - which wouldn't happen if they were mere pullups for the reed switches.

I feel enlightened ;-)
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: Suitable 32.768KHz oscillator for Pulsar Modules...read on

Post11 Jul 2010, 20:04

This is turning out to be a fascinating post. :-)
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: Suitable 32.768KHz oscillator for Pulsar Modules...read on

Post11 Jul 2010, 20:16

As Rewolf has pointed out, without a total circuit diagram, we have lots of mysteries. All we really have at hand are the board and traces - each one of those legs of the IC have a wire bond connected to it that go to the IC, which contains hundreds(100s?) of more electrical components and connections than the board and traces.. Some of those tantalum traces maybe also connect to a pin, circuitwise, that is only two pins away(such as to the trimmer and oscillator sections), but the engineers found it more elegant(considering the laser cut tantalum traces) to make the connection "up in the chip", rather than down on the board.

I'm hoping the moisture from my breathe wasn't too big a factor in my testing - in their jeweler's manual Pulsar actually suggests rinsing a module that has gotten leaked on from batteries or a bad case gasket, and then drying. I've done it and had very few successes, personally. Since they had reaveled some attempts to temperture compensate their movements, I'm still believing that Pulsar did not bother to laser cut a tantulum resistor on the board, when a much simpler, stabler resistor of various materials could have been used fairly simply from those pin positions. Alternate theories into the purpose of the tantalum traces?
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Re: : Suitable 32.768KHz oscillator for Pulsar Modules...rea

Post11 Jul 2010, 20:38

this thread is making me dizzy ;)
I'll try to upload a diagram if I manage to get a nice looking file.

I'm fluent in English and I've read the phrase three times and still it sounds like a denial, it doesn't sound like slang either
retroleds wrote:...I'm still believing that Pulsar did not bother to laser cut a tantulum resistor...when a much simpler, stabler resistor of various materials could have been used...
Last edited by azimuth_pl on 11 Jul 2010, 21:40, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: : Suitable 32.768KHz oscillator for Pulsar Modules...rea

Post11 Jul 2010, 20:59

azimuth_pl wrote:
retroleds wrote:...Pulsar did not bother to laser cut a tantulum resistor...

Piotr: You have mis-quoted me, the important words prior to your quote of my posting was "I'm still believing" , and the words after the quote. Which is not a denial that they laser cut resistors, it is an acknowledgement that they did - you have fallen victim to misunderstanding that sentance due to language differences.. Their absolute function remains a mystery. I'll leave it to you to remove or change the misunderstood quote, then I'll remove this. To keep the thread making some sense.
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: Suitable 32.768KHz oscillator for Pulsar Modules...read on

Post12 Jul 2010, 00:00

rewolf, that circuit diagram is awesome. could it be posted in the photo gallery? peter
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: Suitable 32.768KHz oscillator for Pulsar Modules...read on

Post12 Jul 2010, 00:04

I believe it's still not the final version so let's wait for more details before posting a final diagram
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Re: : Suitable 32.768KHz oscillator for Pulsar Modules...rea

Post12 Jul 2010, 04:25

azimuth_pl wrote:this thread is making me dizzy ;)
I'll try to upload a diagram if I manage to get a nice looking file.

I'm fluent in English and I've read the phrase three times and still it sounds like a denial, it doesn't sound like slang either
retroleds wrote:...I'm still believing that Pulsar did not bother to laser cut a tantulum resistor...when a much simpler, stabler resistor of various materials could have been used...
I t is a rhetorical statement. I saying that it would have been a waste for a fancy resistor to be used, when a much cheaper and simpler alternative could have been fashioned. How could I deny the existence of something (the traces) that is before my eyes?[a rhetorical question]

I am only pondering their intended function, and current function, which may be slightly different due to the ravages of time. :-) .

My more immediate reason for studying those traces was to see about bypassing them to regain function of some dead modules. ;-)
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Re: : Suitable 32.768KHz oscillator for Pulsar Modules...rea

Post12 Jul 2010, 09:45

retroleds wrote:...My more immediate reason for studying those traces was to see about bypassing them to regain function of some dead modules. ;-)
This should be possible with a ~90k SMD resistor plus maybe a small chip inductor or ferrite.
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: Suitable 32.768KHz oscillator for Pulsar Modules...read on

Post12 Jul 2010, 09:53

I too was wondering how these traces would affect the oscillator if they were simply pull up resistors.
I agree, this is a fascinating thread. Please keep this analysis coming !
Regarding an official circuit diagram, I believe a former member has them. I don't know of anyone else with them. Look at leddwatch's posts in this thread (towards the bottom of the page):

http://dwf.nu/viewtopic.php?t=1837&post ... or&start=0

There were partial circuit diagrams posted, but they've vanished over time. If anyone saved them, please re-post them !

Rgds,
Andrew.
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: Suitable 32.768KHz oscillator for Pulsar Modules...read on

Post12 Jul 2010, 11:02

posted on the European confederate forum:
Image
is there more that can be added to make it more detailed?
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: Suitable 32.768KHz oscillator for Pulsar Modules...read on

Post12 Jul 2010, 13:34

That's just a block diagram really.
Well done for finding it though.
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