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teleart module problem

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jagmad

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teleart module problem

Post13 Jan 2016, 18:26

Hi all found this to sort my dress beltek out with working module.
Sorry about the pic quality. :oops:

bodged module fnt crp this one.jpg


bodged module bk crp.jpg


The problem is the 2 o'clock button isn't working. Set button works perfectly.
As you can see from the pics someone has made a bodge of the soldering :~# and
I can't see it is connected to anything.
I'm thinking it's got to be the one I've marked "This one?"
I'm hoping it's a track problem and not something serious.
Please can anyone help me rescue it :?:
Thanks :Prost: :Prost:
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Re: teleart module problem

Post14 Jan 2016, 16:03

You can buy silver paint to repair the track.
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Re: teleart module problem

Post14 Jan 2016, 18:51

Thanks for the helpful comment:
I have silver epoxy, it's not being able to find my meter to check it that's the problem.
Some time before Xmas it sprouted legs an walked.
Got new one on the way so will check for continuity when it arrives.
I've had a look through the soft clear protection substance at the chip end and the
wire bond still looks attached OK.
What I wanted to check with you guys was is there anything stand out wrong
with the module or anything else I should check as I don't have a working one of
these to compare it with.
But thanks again for the helpful tip anyway. :Prost:
"I don't want to belong to any club that will accept me as a member" Julius Henry Marx

"If necessity is the mother of invention, then mother is now standing at the door calling us in to do our home work"

IF YOUR MOBILE PHONE OR SMART WATCH DOESN'T NEED CHARGING AT LEAST EVERY WEEK YOU EITHER...
A. HAVE NO LIFE/FRIENDS. OR NEED FOR ONE.
B. YOU NEED TO SWITCH IT ON.
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Re: teleart module problem

Post14 Jan 2016, 21:11

Lots of exposed wires on the PCB it would be easy to break one when handling the module, have you checked them?
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Re: teleart module problem

Post14 Jan 2016, 21:32

Hi Mick erm sorry but all the wire bonds seem to be under a protective clear soft rubber seal?
Doesn't show up very well on the crap pics I took. :oops:
"I don't want to belong to any club that will accept me as a member" Julius Henry Marx

"If necessity is the mother of invention, then mother is now standing at the door calling us in to do our home work"

IF YOUR MOBILE PHONE OR SMART WATCH DOESN'T NEED CHARGING AT LEAST EVERY WEEK YOU EITHER...
A. HAVE NO LIFE/FRIENDS. OR NEED FOR ONE.
B. YOU NEED TO SWITCH IT ON.
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Re: teleart module problem

Post14 Jan 2016, 21:39

Yes I can just about make it out now that you mention it, on the good side it will give the wire bonds a bit of protection on the down side it might make it a tad awkward should you need to get to any of the traces underneath. It is difficult to make out on the photo but the contact you have highlighted does look to be the culprit hopefully it will prove to be a simple fix - did you try giving it a bit of a nudge with a soldering iron?
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Re: teleart module problem

Post14 Jan 2016, 22:24

You state that the "set" function works properly. I'm guessing that the module is in the case with the back on when you do this test, correct?
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Re: teleart module problem

Post14 Jan 2016, 22:32

Hi Mick that was my next move really as the soldering needs tidying up anyway. :~#
I was going to scratch a little of the trace paint off and run the solder onto the
track to make sure it's connected.
If that don't work I thought about using a needle attached to my meter,
(when it arrives) pushed through the seal near the wire bond to check
for continuity to the switch contact.
What you recon? :Prost:
"I don't want to belong to any club that will accept me as a member" Julius Henry Marx

"If necessity is the mother of invention, then mother is now standing at the door calling us in to do our home work"

IF YOUR MOBILE PHONE OR SMART WATCH DOESN'T NEED CHARGING AT LEAST EVERY WEEK YOU EITHER...
A. HAVE NO LIFE/FRIENDS. OR NEED FOR ONE.
B. YOU NEED TO SWITCH IT ON.
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Re: teleart module problem

Post14 Jan 2016, 22:34

Appears from your pictures that the trace from the IC to the contact pad should be connected together, would certainly make sense to do so. It also appears that the bronze metal contact is indeed soldered to the pad. If by chance the trace was NOT intentionally connected to the contact pad, then to make contact would rely on a solder joint under the bronze contact to the trace, a poor choice if that's what was intended. If you wait until your new meter arrives and find that there is no contact between the trace and pad, then you will have to reflow the solder to try and make contact between the two. Why not just reflow the solder while your waiting for the meter, or better yet tack a small strand of wire from the trace to the contact to insure that there is continuity between the two. If doing so does not cure the problem then I can post some other reasons which might be causing the fault and outline test procedures when you get your new meter.
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Re: teleart module problem

Post14 Jan 2016, 22:37

Ole Joe wrote:You state that the "set" function works properly. I'm guessing that the module is in the case with the back on when you do this test, correct?


:Hi: Joe thanks for chiming in. :Prost:
No dude you should know me better than that. :lol:
It's the same on my test bed. You know the tin foil one. ;-) ~:(

Well it normally works for me. :-P

:Prost: :Prost:
"I don't want to belong to any club that will accept me as a member" Julius Henry Marx

"If necessity is the mother of invention, then mother is now standing at the door calling us in to do our home work"

IF YOUR MOBILE PHONE OR SMART WATCH DOESN'T NEED CHARGING AT LEAST EVERY WEEK YOU EITHER...
A. HAVE NO LIFE/FRIENDS. OR NEED FOR ONE.
B. YOU NEED TO SWITCH IT ON.
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Re: teleart module problem

Post14 Jan 2016, 22:40

Ole Joe wrote:Appears from your pictures that the trace from the IC to the contact pad should be connected together, would certainly make sense to do so. It also appears that the bronze metal contact is indeed soldered to the pad. If by chance the trace was NOT intentionally connected to the contact pad, then to make contact would rely on a solder joint under the bronze contact to the trace, a poor choice if that's what was intended. If you wait until your new meter arrives and find that there is no contact between the trace and pad, then you will have to reflow the solder to try and make contact between the two. Why not just reflow the solder while your waiting for the meter, or better yet tack a small strand of wire from the trace to the contact to insure that there is continuity between the two. If doing so does not cure the problem then I can post some other reasons which might be causing the fault and outline test procedures when you get your new meter.


See my post above yours.
I think we are crossing post's.
Great minds think alike.
:Prost:
"I don't want to belong to any club that will accept me as a member" Julius Henry Marx

"If necessity is the mother of invention, then mother is now standing at the door calling us in to do our home work"

IF YOUR MOBILE PHONE OR SMART WATCH DOESN'T NEED CHARGING AT LEAST EVERY WEEK YOU EITHER...
A. HAVE NO LIFE/FRIENDS. OR NEED FOR ONE.
B. YOU NEED TO SWITCH IT ON.
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Re: teleart module problem

Post14 Jan 2016, 22:46

OK!!!, love the aluminum foil testing method, glad you remembered that trick. Will aid in determining the problem if re-flowing the solder does not work. Your idea of making a direct connection between the trace and metal contact with solder is a GOOD idea, no jumper wire involved. Please DO NOT use a needle to puncture the conformal coating near the wire bond. Will outline a test for that when your new meter arrives.
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Re: teleart module problem

Post14 Jan 2016, 23:34

Thanks Joe I'll wait and post when it arrives. :-?
Now you may or may not believe this but impetuosity got the better of me
and I have just cleaned a little of the track and ran the solder onto it.
Still no go. :bang:
My fear now is it's at the ic end.
I have up loaded 2 pics (really bad ones through my highest led mag specs)
The green circle shows the solder flow. I even had to carefully cut a tiny slither
of the conformal coating (thanks for telling me that) to get at the track.
Although the pic is really poor it looks like I got it when I look direct.
The black circle shows the wire bond to track looks OK.
The red one don't look so clever and I can't see any better with the glasses on.
Tanks again Pete

magnified module 2.jpg


magnified module.jpg
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"I don't want to belong to any club that will accept me as a member" Julius Henry Marx

"If necessity is the mother of invention, then mother is now standing at the door calling us in to do our home work"

IF YOUR MOBILE PHONE OR SMART WATCH DOESN'T NEED CHARGING AT LEAST EVERY WEEK YOU EITHER...
A. HAVE NO LIFE/FRIENDS. OR NEED FOR ONE.
B. YOU NEED TO SWITCH IT ON.
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Re: teleart module problem

Post15 Jan 2016, 01:57

Ole Joe is better skilled to advise you than myself but I would add that from my own limited experience I have had better results reconnecting traces by using conductive paint rather than solder, I find that the traces can retreat from the solder also conductive paint can be easier to place accurately preventing unintentional short circuits with neighbouring traces, then again my problems my well stem from the fact that I am shite at soldering :grin1:
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Re: teleart module problem

Post15 Jan 2016, 02:40

bucko170 wrote:Ole Joe is better skilled to advise you than myself but I would add that from my own limited experience I have had better results reconnecting traces by using conductive paint rather than solder, I find that the traces can retreat from the solder also conductive paint can be easier to place accurately preventing unintentional short circuits with neighbouring traces, then again my problems my well stem from the fact that I am shite at soldering :grin1:


M:)W:)M M:)W:)M ;-)

Do you use paint or silver epoxy?
"I don't want to belong to any club that will accept me as a member" Julius Henry Marx

"If necessity is the mother of invention, then mother is now standing at the door calling us in to do our home work"

IF YOUR MOBILE PHONE OR SMART WATCH DOESN'T NEED CHARGING AT LEAST EVERY WEEK YOU EITHER...
A. HAVE NO LIFE/FRIENDS. OR NEED FOR ONE.
B. YOU NEED TO SWITCH IT ON.
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Re: teleart module problem

Post15 Jan 2016, 04:30

jagmad wrote:
M:)W:)M M:)W:)M ;-)

Do you use paint or silver epoxy?


I didn't realise I said anything funny :scratch:

YES I actually do mean conductive paint - this one in fact, ........ http://www.ebay.com/itm/CONDUCTIVE-40-S ... Tjt7QpatdQ this one has a 40% silver content, mine has a 60% silver content because the higher the silver content the better the conductivity (no shit Sherlock), I use a tooth pick dabbed into the paint to redraw broken electrical traces it's accurate and dries really fast.

I find conductive paint is better than the glue (silver epoxy) for bridging gaps and reconnecting traces on PCB boards - although if I wanted to remake any of the wire bonds I would choose the silver epoxy because that, being adhesive, would make them stick - wouldn't it. :roll:
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Re: teleart module problem

Post15 Jan 2016, 18:44

bucko170 wrote:I have had better results reconnecting traces by using conductive paint rather than solder, I find that the traces can retreat from the solder:grin1:


What Mick is stating about a "trace" retreating from the solder is very true. Normally doesn't happen with printed circuit boards like the one being shown in this thread, but will definitely do so on ceramic type circuit substrates which were used almost exclusively in the early LED watches. The reason why this happens is because the traces are screened onto the alumina substrate using Palladium sliver ink. Using solder containing lead will "leech" the silver from the printed substrate into the solder. Use only NON LEAD type solder when attempting to repair this type of module.

Thanks Mick for bringing this up, just might save some of those old substrates in the future.
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Re: teleart module problem

Post15 Jan 2016, 18:59

Ole Joe wrote:
bucko170 wrote:I have had better results reconnecting traces by using conductive paint rather than solder, I find that the traces can retreat from the solder:grin1:


What Mick is stating about a "trace" retreating from the solder is very true. Normally doesn't happen with printed circuit boards like the one being shown in this thread, but will definitely do so on ceramic type circuit substrates which were used almost exclusively in the early LED watches. The reason why this happens is because the traces are screened onto the alumina substrate using Palladium sliver ink. Using solder containing lead will "leech" the silver from the printed substrate into the solder. Use only NON LEAD type solder when attempting to repair this type of module.

Thanks Mick for bringing this up, just might save some of those old substrates in the future.


And thank you for the very informative post and clear explanation - I have learned something new, cheers! :-D
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Re: teleart module problem

Post15 Jan 2016, 20:09

bucko170 wrote:
Ole Joe wrote:
bucko170 wrote:I have had better results reconnecting traces by using conductive paint rather than solder, I find that the traces can retreat from the solder:grin1:


What Mick is stating about a "trace" retreating from the solder is very true. Normally doesn't happen with printed circuit boards like the one being shown in this thread, but will definitely do so on ceramic type circuit substrates which were used almost exclusively in the early LED watches. The reason why this happens is because the traces are screened onto the alumina substrate using Palladium sliver ink. Using solder containing lead will "leech" the silver from the printed substrate into the solder. Use only NON LEAD type solder when attempting to repair this type of module.

Thanks Mick for bringing this up, just might save some of those old substrates in the future.


And thank you for the very informative post and clear explanation - I have learned something new, cheers! :-D


+1
Thanks again. :Prost:
"I don't want to belong to any club that will accept me as a member" Julius Henry Marx

"If necessity is the mother of invention, then mother is now standing at the door calling us in to do our home work"

IF YOUR MOBILE PHONE OR SMART WATCH DOESN'T NEED CHARGING AT LEAST EVERY WEEK YOU EITHER...
A. HAVE NO LIFE/FRIENDS. OR NEED FOR ONE.
B. YOU NEED TO SWITCH IT ON.
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Re: teleart module problem

Post18 Jan 2016, 21:44

As a follow up to this thread, so as not to leave it hanging, I sent the below information to Pete (Jagmad), by Personnel Message so that he could hopefully determe the problem with his module when he received his new meter. I hope that it might help someone else in the furture with troubleshooting a module.

Pete sent me a follow up indicating that he did have continuity from the "Time" contact to the printed circuit board trace, but did NOT get a reading of 1.5V on the "Time" contact as outlined in the below tests. Most likely there is a bad wire bond between the chip and the pc board trace in Pete's module.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

When you get your new meter try the following tests:

1. With no batteries or battery clip installed, measure the continuity from the "Time" metal contact to the trace on the printed circuit board. You might want to use that "needle" you referred too in your earlier post to touch the trace just below the solder joint you made between the trace and the metal contact. If no continuity redo the solder joint or use a single strand of wire from a multiple stranded wire as a jumper. If you have continuity proceed to step 2.

2. Module with batteries and battery clip in place. Make sure the battery clip is making contact with the aluminum foil.
Set the meter to read DC voltage. Select the 2V scale or closest available. Touch the "Black" lead to the Foil, touch the "Red" lead to the "Time" contact on the module. Does the meter indicate a voltage reading of 1V - 1.5V?

If no reading, perform the same test on the "Set" contact.

A reading on the "Set" contact and not the "Time" contact would indicate that there is an open circuit from the "Time" contact to the chip, most likely the wire bond.
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Re: teleart module problem

Post18 Jan 2016, 22:13

As Joe has said above I have checked and it's not good. :-(
It's not the end of it though. As I have 4 call to loose I have an idea floating around my head,
and when I get an afternoon/evening spare, which may be some time, I will have a go.
It's obviously gonna involve puncturing the conformal coating but as I said nowt to loose?
I've been thinking about purchasing some kind of on screen microscope/camera.
Although I'll probably have to give up the alcohol for a while to help with the shakes. :grin1:

Thanks again Joe et all for your invaluable input, :Prost: :Prost: and I'll let you all know
the outcome when I get around to it.

:dwf:
"I don't want to belong to any club that will accept me as a member" Julius Henry Marx

"If necessity is the mother of invention, then mother is now standing at the door calling us in to do our home work"

IF YOUR MOBILE PHONE OR SMART WATCH DOESN'T NEED CHARGING AT LEAST EVERY WEEK YOU EITHER...
A. HAVE NO LIFE/FRIENDS. OR NEED FOR ONE.
B. YOU NEED TO SWITCH IT ON.
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Re: teleart module problem

Post18 Jan 2016, 22:32

Like you state Pete, at this point nothing to loose in trying to repair, GO FOR IT!

Joe

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