p 1 on e bay!

[holly35]

check it out
item 110514890951
looks like a pre production sample as the gold has worn off,according to seller,so it not 18k! perhaps its a pre production sample used by an agent to display the new watch to pulsar dealers? .i know this is common practice, however i have never heard any mention of them anywhere.i would have thought a sample would be an empty case,but apparently the seller uses a fridge magnet to set it,so it must have some sort of innards.it is sealed on the case back though, just like the original.
the sellers father won two of these many years ago. very interesting,what do you think? there are no markings on the case back to indicate serial numbers ,so it would indicate a mockup of some description,still must be wort something. seller says his father got them prior to production begining.

[morelite]

I thought that was an SS model until I enlarged the pics 200% then it got real ugly looking. The seller even has it listed as a SS case.

[morelite]

The auction has been cancelled.

[J Thomas]

[charger105]

Some lucky punter probably made him an offer he couldn't refuse, and he's more than likely lost a fortune in accepting.

I've read somewhere, and seen pictures of brass salesmans P1 sample watches. Can't remember where though. Apparently this one was plated stainless though ?

Rgds.

[bruce wegmann]

Not quite sure what we're looking at here, but it is interesting. I think one of these went up on eBay a few years back and went for a couple hundred [can't find it in my auction records, though I seem to remember Mike Barbaro was the seller]. And, there is no "fortune" here...what with boxed P1s going for $6000 lately [number six], and a boxed, 18K P4 for less than melt value. I have inquired for additional information...so far, no reply. The bottom line here is...this is NOT a P1...looks like one, but isn't. By definitiion, the P1 is an 18K solid gold watch, and this is certainly not. There WERE P1 prototypes, but all look very different from the P1 design we all know and love. This watch appears to be cast from the same mold, so to speak [although the bracelet looks a bit wrong...can't quite put my finger on it...if I get better pictures it might tell the whole story]; if "salesman's samples" did exist, this might be one of them...we will [hopefully] see... It may be the "P1" John Bergey donated to the Smithsonian was one of these, with the 18K gold-plating intact, but that's just speculation on my part.

[abem]

Hi,

Well, I'm either the "lucky guy" or the hopelessy optimistic fool who purchased this item, depending on how things go. I never believed that I would ever own a P1 and I still don't. I hope it's not an April Fool's day Pulsar. We'll see!

The online photos were definitely challenging to decipher. In terms of the stainless verses gold debate, the camera's white balance settings can easilly make silver look like gold or vice versa, so that's probably not a great way to validate the watch. Still, the color doesn't seem right. I'm not sure what to think. I asked the seller for additional photos that might tell the story a little better. Here they are:







The watch definitely has cosmetic issues, but I've been amazed at how well Pulsars can be restored, so I'm not as concerned about that. Would I still be happy with it if it turns out to be a gold plated salesman's sample or a pre-production sample? Yeah, I guess I could live with that. It's probably as close as I'll ever get to a real P1. It would still be an interesting piece of history. In that case, it would be even rarer than a real P1. It might be neat to have the world's only stainless P1 I wonder if the time screen is still ruby...

Stay tuned for the conclusion of the story...

-abe.

[abem]

In terms of the stainless / gold issue, here's a white balance test that I just did with a gold filled P4. At around 3500 degrees Kelvin, it becomes difficult to distinguish the two:



Could the item in the eBay listing possibly be gold rather than stainless? It seems doubtful. Still, it's hard to say for certain.

-abe.

[Led-Time]

If your P1 is stainless a simple re-brush and it'll be looking 1st class, please post clear pictures of it when it arrives...

[bruce wegmann]

Yes, it can be said for certain. This is definitely NOT an 18K watch. The Hamilton clasp alone is proof of that [Hamilton never made any solid gold LEDs]. His pics were taken in natural sunlight, and the wear-through of the plating is obvious. As I said, these have surfaced before. There is no serial number or other markings on the case back, so it is impossible this was intended for retail sale. The sales-rep-sample seems the most likely possibility.

[charger105]

Congratulations on your score Abem.

It seems this is a very rare item indeed. And as Klippie said, it'll come up nice with a bit of TLC. Shame it's not solid, but the seller probably wouldn't have let it go so easily if it had 18k stamped on the back.

Please keep us updated with details when it arrives. The module could be very interesting if the watch was sold prior to official release. It may have escaped the 'upgrade' program.

BTW, if anyone hasn't looked on OldPulsars lately, it's been updated with some interesting prototype info and photos.

Rgds,
Andrew.

[holly35]

just found out,these are indeed salesmens copies,intended for shop demos.they are not stainless steel but all brass.around 65 examples were produced. best of all they were fitted with the 25 chip module,no doubt showing an empty case to dealers is not the way to demo this new technology so pulsar fitted these pre production display models fully working.apparently there was only one example known to remain in existance but the module was dead.this apparenty is another surviving example.

[LEDluvr]

Amazing! More Pulsar history unfolding right in front of our eyes. Good score Abem! Looking forward to all the pics and details when you receive it.....

[abem]

holly35,

Amazing! Very impressive research. Thank you! How did you manage to uncover out such detailed and obscure informaton?

Are you sure the watch is entirely brass? From the photos, it looks like the watch case is brass, but the watch back and band still look quite a lot like stanless steel.

I have to admit, I was rather hoping that the watch was entirely stainless instead of brass. On the other hand, I'm really glad to hear that it will likely contain the 25 chip module. So, I guess it sort of evens out. If the watch is solid brass, then it makes the restoration question a bit easier. I was previously assuming that it was most likely gold plated stainless, in which case I was wondering whether to (a) leave the damaged plating, (b) remove the plating, or (c) remove the plating and then have it replated. Now, I guess I don't have to worry about that.

Does anyone know how many 25 chip modules are known to exist?

I'm assuming that the module is dead, but I have to admit, it is exciting to think that there's an infinitesimal but non-zero possibility that it could contain a working or even semi-working module.

I was a bit surprised that this pre-production unit was a "salesmans' model" rather than an engineering pre-production model. I thought the P1 was sold and marketed exclusively through Tiffany's. Does that really require 65 demo units? It seems odd to have built a set of 65 salesman's models in order to sell 400 production models - one for every 6 production models. Why would they build so many saleman's models for such an exclusive product? It would be instructive to hear to full story behind how the P1 was sold.

In terms of the restoration process, I'm still undecided about how much of it I feel comfortable doing myself and how much of it I should leave to an expert. I'll know more when I see the watch and have had some time to do a bit more research. I'm a little concerned about opening the watch to inspect the module and to remove the module before restoration. I've read that the P1's were soldered shut leaving only access to the batteries. If anyone has advice about how to unsolder the P1 case or other aspects of restoration and maintenance that would be helpful to this project, then please send the information my way.

Thanks again for all of your help and enthusiasm,

-abe.

[abem]

I was doing a little poking around online and I found some information from Archer Mclean that there were indeed 65 salesman's models made and that they were technically made from "nickel silver", which is an allow of copper and nickel and sometimes zinc, rather than brass, which is an allow of just copper and zinc.

From http://www.dwf.cc/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=384:
---
"There's some additional notes about a further 65 P1 cases to be possibly made of Nickel Silver, or 14k with a GF strap and a lower quality red glass filter. It’s the latter which I believe became the 'salesmans' watches.

Also, "nickel silver" which is a made from copper and nickel, hence its gold like colour … It doesn’t actually contain any silver at all! do an IMAGES search on Google for 'nickel silver' and it will come back with lots of nice light gold coloured objects, including saxaphones and other musical instruments etc."
---

Nickel silver:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel_silver
Brass:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brass

-abe.

[abem]

Here's a very interesting piece of the puzzle:

I was told by the seller that "My father sold the signs for American Time and Temp and received 2 for selling large amounts of T&T signs one was stolen no one in the family cared about it." When I read this, it really didn't seem to make any sense at the time. Why on earth would a sign salesman be given two Hamilton pre-production P1 watches by his employer? I couldn't figure out how someone who worked at a company called "American Time and Temp" would end up with a watch that was never sold or intended to be seen outside of Hamilton.

What was this company "American Time and Temp"? It turns out that it was a division of Electro Data, the company that originally developed the P1 electronics for Hamilton!

From http://www.oldpulsars.com/ElectroData.htm:
"Substantial growth at Electro Data, along with many lucrative contracts in the microwave division, made the company very profitable. Electro/Data's other profitable division, American Time, made time/temperature clocks and signs for the commercial market."

Electro-data was a small company of about 30 people and it could be argued that they were treated unfairly by Hamilton. They certainly were never given appropriate credit. There were patent disputes between the two companies and Electro/Data was forced into bankrupcy in 1973. Thus, giving out items such as the P1 pre-production watches might have been the only option available to them at the time for things like employee bonuses.
http://www.eetimes.com/anniversary/desi ... /time.html

The puzzle pieces fit perfectly!

-abe.

[Led-Time]

I can tell your getting rather excited about this watch... , I can't blame you I would be too...

[abem]

I was trying not to get too excited, but yes, I'm losing that battle. I've actually really enjoyed playing history detective these past few days. That part has been just as fun as tinkering with and wearing the little gadgets.

-abe.

[abem]

One other side benefit of this pre-production P1 is that now I can say "Bruce's collection of P1's is pretty nice... if you're into late-model Pulsars."

<poke><poke>

:)

-abe.