It is currently 19 Oct 2025, 22:29


About vintage performance

Talk about everything digital watch related and off - topic.
  • Author
  • Message
Offline

Huertecilla

Wizard

Wizard

  • Posts: 401
  • Joined: 11 Feb 2011, 14:44
  • Location: Andalucía

About vintage performance

Post05 Mar 2011, 00:01

In contempary documentation I have found performance for p.e. the Microma and Optel modules as +/- 5 seconds per month.
Are those in any way compensated for temperature, did they do something else to get that level of performance, or was there smallprint like ´under laboratory conditions´?
´Design oder nicht sein´
Offline

Huertecilla

Wizard

Wizard

  • Posts: 401
  • Joined: 11 Feb 2011, 14:44
  • Location: Andalucía

: About vintage performance

Post12 Mar 2011, 01:53

Hmmmm...

Well nothing like a challenge to do your own sourcing.
It is the way one learns the most effective :-P
´Design oder nicht sein´
Offline

Huertecilla

Wizard

Wizard

  • Posts: 401
  • Joined: 11 Feb 2011, 14:44
  • Location: Andalucía

: About vintage performance

Post18 Mar 2011, 10:01

Ok, got it.

When quartz controlled digital watches were being develloped, they were constructed properly; not at the cheap.

The repeater and the power supply were stabelised, the devider thus had a stable platform and the driver sent an accurate count that could be trimmed.

The big differences being voltage stabelising, tolerances and trimming.

When a quartz timer is made like that it performes at 1-2 sec/month accurate within a narrow temperature band.
Hence 5 secs./month between bed side table and wrist.

Very 8-) that the answer to why the Seiko EPD has such good stand alone performance wihout being tc was to be found in a 32 y.o. watchmaker´s schoolbook; it simply is a properly made quartz timer.


For the digital watch enthusiasts:
The Digital Electronic Watch : Tom M. Hyltin 1978
ISBN-13: 9780442225964
´Design oder nicht sein´
Offline
User avatar

rewolf

Guru

Guru

  • Posts: 1863
  • Joined: 11 Jul 2004, 15:32
  • Location: Ravensburg, Southern Germany

: About vintage performance

Post19 Mar 2011, 20:16

I bet none of the eraly digital watches has a stabilized power supply for the oscillator.
What is a repeater?
A standard quartz oscillator of today can be trimmed to 2-3ppm, that is 1s/month, at a given temperature.
But on top of the possible 2-3ppm is the temperature dependent resonant frequency of the crystal.
Quartz watches are adjusted for "wrist temperature" - IF they are adjusted at all, most aren't nowadays, and I beleive this is the biggest differerence between now and the early days. Unadjusted, the deviation is usually up to 20ppm, ~1min/month, due to production tolerances of the quartz.
And then there is aging...


Quartz crystals are specified for 25°C. The 32kHz tuning fork crystals have a negative temperature coefficient in both directions, i.e. they run slower at temperatures above or below 25°C.

Copied from here: http://dwf.nu/viewtopic.php?p=25336#25336.

The usual frequency deviation for 32kHz tunig fork crystals (modern type) is -0.04ppm * (25°C - T)², that is, the frequency deviation is always negative with respect to 25°C.
Iif you adjust the oscillator for 0ppm @ 25°C, then the deviation is -1ppm (0.1s/day slow, 2.6s/month) @ 30°C resp. 20°C, and -4ppm @ 35°C resp. 15°C, and -9ppm (0.8s/day) @ 40°C resp. 10°C.
If it's adjusted for 30°C (wrist temperature), there is NO deviation at 20°C, but +1ppm (2.6s/month fast) @ 25°C, -3ppm @ 15°C, -8ppm @10°C. (I think a diagram would make this clearer...)
Conclusion: it seems wiser to adjust the oscillator for 30°C because this leads to less overall deviation over the interesting temperature range (15°C ~ 35°C).
Image
Offline

Huertecilla

Wizard

Wizard

  • Posts: 401
  • Joined: 11 Feb 2011, 14:44
  • Location: Andalucía

Re: : About vintage performance

Post20 Mar 2011, 00:13

rewolf wrote:I bet none of the eraly digital watches has a stabilized power supply for the oscillator.
What is a repeater?


That is the part that keeps giving the electric impulses to keep the quartz cristal oscilating.
It is part of an 'quartz oscilator' but it is the bit that mákes and keeps the cristal oscilating.
The crystal merely resonates in response.

In the 1978 manual the stabelising of the power supply to the oscilator (cristal and repeater) and devider is mentioned as a mark of quality, as a difference between well made and compromised by cost.
It does not list which ones were which.

Ditto a trimmer being present and set, ditto the use of a pre-aged cristal.

For me it answers why early quartz watches which were not made penny wise can be specced as 3 or 5 secs/month.

Quite a few early quartzes have a provision for temperature compensation too. This dissappear from all but the ones at the very high luxury end as soon as quartz watches become cheaper in the second half of the seventies.

Non tc, non stabelised, not trimmed but véry cheap and 15-20 secs/month becomes the standard.
Understandibly as it still is 30 times better than a good (if not chronometer) mechanical and at a very much lower cost.

The temperature deviation graph of quartz you gave is indeed typical for a the current shape/frequency cristals used.
The block (sometimes bar) cristals used in some early oscilators are far more stable but cost considerably more (to cut precisely and 'trim') and are some 20 times more voluminous, The minute laser cut and trimmed tuning fork shaped cristals were very much cheaper to mass produce and since wrist temp. is pretty stable any, thus performance good enough, these became omni-present.

The whole key to the performance differences between early and late seventies onwards quartz is the production cost versus 'good enough'.
In the early years the possibilities of the technology were being explored and cost more a result than leading.
'Good enough' at at the sharpest price became the only norm with VERY few even more expensive exceptions.
The cheap image of electronic digitals killed off the high end modules alltogether.
The Seiko 0634 was the last of the tc ones whereas the analogues maintained two, three tc quartzes at the very high end.

It sééms that the Seiko S760 and S760 are a step towards well made solid state electronic digital quartz modules.
The stand alone performance indicates good structural quality of both the oscilator and the module. I have however nó, NO, concrete data about their built.

Just by coïncidance my EPD was above 50 degrees: in fault mode, yesterday and today for some time and was not synched last night.
I am going to keep is from synching again tonight and check the deviation tomorrow.
Several hours at 60 - 70 degrees shoúld give a measurable and extrapolatable deviation.

Freezing to just below -5 for a period of two days was already on the list as that gives a bigger and thus better measurable deviation :mrgreen:
´Design oder nicht sein´
Offline
User avatar

rewolf

Guru

Guru

  • Posts: 1863
  • Joined: 11 Jul 2004, 15:32
  • Location: Ravensburg, Southern Germany

Re: : About vintage performance

Post20 Mar 2011, 15:55

Huertecilla wrote:The Seiko 0634 was the last of the tc ones whereas the analogues maintained two, three tc quartzes at the very high end.
I didn't know the 0634 was temperature compensated. Up to now I had considered it one of the less interesting early Seiko LCDs (I love the very early ones).

Does anyone know of other temperature compensated digitals?

Short comparison of oscillator types:
http://www.oscilent.com/esupport/TechSupport/ReviewPapers/IntroQuartz/vigtypes.htm

An interesting article is here: The Electronic Watch and Low-Power Circuits by Eric A. Vittoz (if the link doesn't work, google the title)

BTW: my Ventura vtec kappa has been running without readjustment for over a year - and still less than 1s deviation ;-) Just proper trimming I guess.

Return to General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 89 guests