What is the problem with high(er) end digitals?

[retroleds]

To be honest, mechanical watches are already obsolete. Why continue pursuing a more expensive, problematic and less accurate form of time keeping when another concept exists that is far less expensive to manufacture, really never has trouble save for a defective part, is definitely much more accurate, and can incorporate advanced features like solar recharging and atomic clock synchronization? Nostalgia. Tradition. Reverence for the masters of old. But as soon as the next few human generations cycle through, this will be left behind for most of the population. I do not doubt that some people will continue an allegiance to the old ways and pass it on. There's something about human fascination that continues on in the face of adversity. But for the majority of people, they'd just scratch their heads and wonder why anybody would bother when a 100% accurate digital "watch" 3mm thick that comfortably sticks to your wrist, recharged by the bioelectric current of your own body as well as rays of light, can tell you all you need to know at the flick of your wrist (date, time, weather, incoming caller, upcoming appointment, outside air temperature, your own temperature and pulse rate, barometric pressure trends, etc).

While all that is true, no attempt is being made to sell even a modestly "jewelry quality" digital. Like the new Hamilton Pulsematic - which is slightly overpriced. $100 worth of better metals, machined nicely, with the ubiquitous $20 movement.....I think a lot of people wouldl pay $300-600 for that if done nicely. People like nicer stuff - sure the cheap item will do the job, but nobody ever held their head down in shame for having bought "nicer".

My Seiko Kinetic died - I love the bulbous Saphire crystal. I have a nice reverse display LCD movement(Chinese, what else) I hope to put it in the Seiko. Maybe this summer when I am taking a break. Then I will have an [almost] jewelry quality watch with a modern, digital movement.
The watch is dead, but the gun still works fine.


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[Huertecilla]

Mechanical watches are "green" - BTW: is this being used for marketing yet? Rolex' new "green line"

That would backfire as mechanicals use múch more resources and most of the manufacturing process pollutes more and uses more energy.

A 1K Ventura will outlast a 3K mechanical Omega.
A solar powered quality electronic will even pollute less for use over time as it needs no maintenance nor batteries.
Have a look at the Synchronar. Now S&S is at it, they are proving that this is eternally serviceable too.

The greenest watch one can buy is a well made electronic solar digital from an environmentally conscious company.

Thát is why the green argument is not used; since it would backfire.

There simply is no other reason why higher end electronic digital watches are not appreciated other than the inverse effect of the mechanical pink bull marketing.

Main stream luxury mechanicals are every bit as automated mass produces, use more resources, are not more durable. When fitted into the same quality hardware an electronic digital is a vastly surperior watch

In the current horo-´logic´ reality the electronis digital watches are prices basically bottom up; based on cost plus margin.
The mechanicals are priced at what the marketing makes the marked accept.
Analogue quartz are under halfway between.
The exception is the Seiko Spring Drive. That is a quartz watch that has been given briljant mechanical marketing and is accepted at a premium over Grand Seiko mechanicals even

The watch manufacturers have huge interest in feeding the mechnical appreciation as they can sell watches costing nothing more to make for 3 to 10 times the bottom up pricing of digital- and analogue quartzes in the same quality hardware.
Remeber that most mechanical watches use engines that are decénnia old designs only marginally upgraded every now and then to be more and more effciently mass produced

To put it in perpsective: Rolex sells close to 1 million watches per year. They use only a handfull of autmated mass produced movements that are all going back 35 years or more when watch movements were designed/ redesigned for automated production.
The latest ´in house´ chrono is a redesigned 40 y.o. Zenith with a greatly reduced number of parts which is easier to automated mass produce. Oh and it is a lot more expensive offcourse...

[Huertecilla]

Let us take óne step back.
To http://www.dwf.nu/viewtopic.php?t=4456

Now have a look at the link Rewolf gave about electronic watches, integrated circuitry.

We nowadays have three basic time keeping modules:
- analogue, gear driven by a spring controlled by a balance wheel/escapement oscilator
- analogue, gear driven by a battery controlled by a quartz oscilator
- digital with electronic driver powered by a battery and controlled by a quartz oscilator

This can be made cheaply to low production standards or made to high specs costing more.
Bar exceptions all are automated mass produced.

The resulting timer can be mounted in a case with band to any spec.

The luxury mechanicals are just as much more expensively priced on the market as the same manufacturing quality digital electronis are better instruments in every aspect.

Marketing is the reason.
Despite both being automated mass produced the one is perceived as a stunning piece of craftsmanship and the other is only a digital....

[rewolf]

... the one is perceived as a stunning piece of craftsmanship and the other is only a digital....

I believe it's because one can actually watch a mechanical movement working (glass bottoms etc), and hear it ticking. This IS fascinating, I too was fascinated by watch movements as a child, and I loved the ticking of the many watches and clocks in my grandpa's workshop. A digital quartz watch appears "dead". nothing moves, nothing ticks, sterile, dull - no emotion, that's the point IMO.

Perhaps Ventura should also require regular maintainance of their watches like Rolex - change battery, replace gaskets, lubricate the v-tex scrollwheel, re-adjust the oscillator, and maybe even update the firmware . Of course this would have to cost some 100 Euros, else it wouldn't be valued

[xevious]

Sorry to hear about your Seiko Kinetic dying, retroleds. If it's any comfort, this isn't the first I've heard of it. The nature of the mechanical parts for this watch seem to tax reliability. This is why I went with a Citizen Eco Drive (completely static recharge system), although I must admit some of the Seiko Kinetic models have a wonderfully unique casing design. Before going the route of substituting the movement, maybe there's some diagnostics you can perform yourself to help narrow down the problem? Do you know of any Seiko Kinetic forums that offer up much of this kind of information?


Mechanical watches in of themselves are green... HOWEVER... an often overlooked aspect is the fact that they require much more servicing than a digital watch. The effort spent on that plus the consumption of money for the task certainly doesn't help the "green" factor. That's why I've got only two of them, both Omega, which are reported to go a bit longer between servicings without taxing the parts (about 5 years).

However, a digital watch with solar recharging that enables a battery to last 20+ years sounds exceedingly green to me. Also, the constituents of the slow recharging battery may actually be less toxic than your typical aklaline or lithium cell.

[Huertecilla]

Also, the constituents of the slow recharging battery may actually be less toxic than your typical aklaline or lithium cell.

Modern alkaline batteries are not considered toxic waste anymore.

The latest solar elctronic digital battery cels should last well over 25 years and the EPD ones should outlast this by at least half.

Since both the solar cell and ic´s are mainly silicon and the production process rather clean that too is a LOT greener than the metal machining needed for mechanicals.
It is a bit in the margin though but the ´green´ is definitely not a selling point for mechanicals.
Indeed Wolfgang; the only selling point is the marketing of the moving bits; the balance spring/escapement mechanism.

Personally I get more excited by the low power circuitry in solid state electronics of the watch being very much like the human brain:

´It is interesting to point out that these voltage levels are comparable to that of the action potential in the brain.

The human brain is a fantastic computing machine. With its 1011 neurons (or 1012 cells if we include the supporting glial cells), it consumes about the same power as a fast modern microprocessor. But its processing power is immensely larger. It must therefore use much more energy efficient computation strategies. Some of them are known. A massive parallelism compensates for the much lower speed of each neuron (maximum firing rate of about 2kHz). But it also makes possible the spatio-temporal representation and processing of information, by means of arrays of cells organized in maps.
The system may be seen as digital, since it uses short pulses of fixed shape and amplitude (called the action potential) to carry the signal. But it is essentially analog since the information is carried by the frequency and by the phase of these pulses. Its program and data memory is distributed and is stored in the pattern of interconnections and in their variable strengths (synaptic weights). Its learning capability has inspired the approach of artificial neural networks (with interesting but limited results, due probably to an inadequate adaptation to the silicon environment). But what is known today is certainly a very small part of all the unusual schemes exploited by the brain, and new ones are being uncovered by very active teams of neurophysiologists.´

to have this artificial brain technology on the wrist.

The ic technology of today is down to molecular level and so is the solar cell excited by photons.
The EPD even adds nano technology in the display to that.
All that in a nice box on your wrist must surely must be thé coolest technology apart from being superior in every performance sense.

The difference between this and the ticking bit in a mechanical watch is that the latter can be seen if not grasped by any kid and appreciating the former needs conceptual thinking.

[rewolf]

Since both the solar cell and ic´s are mainly silicon and the production process rather clean that too is a LOT greener than the metal machining needed for mechanicals.

Semiconductor production requires many aggressive chemicals and vast amounts of energy. I'd rather not call it "clean"...

[Huertecilla]

Since both the solar cell and ic´s are mainly silicon and the production process rather clean that too is a LOT greener than the metal machining needed for mechanicals.

Semiconductor production requires many aggressive chemicals and vast amounts of energy. I'd rather not call it "clean"...

Agreed, hence my earlier ´environmentally conscious manufacturer´ so as closed recycling systems are used.

The mining, smelting and alloying of steels, the transport and then machining is even worse though. Only the latter part at high tech watch manufacturers plants is clean with closed recycling sytems for chemicals and coolants. The new Rolex plant is zero emission. The metal going in however is a different story.
It uses far more energy alltogether.

Like I wrote however there is not thát much in it save for the mining and high ovens.

Remember that it is NOT a pile of arguments to state that electronics watches are ´green´. They are not.
Mechanicals however are less so.
This in answer to your remark about the ´green´ argument lacking in marketing.

[rewolf]

Remember that it is NOT a pile of arguments to state that electronics watches are ´green´. They are not.
Mechanicals however are less so.

This is what I'm not convinced of. Both require case+bracelet, which is the heaviest part. A digital module also requires steel (but less) and many other elements (in very small amounts). It would be interesting to know the actual ressource and primary energy "footprint" of typical movements.
And: the material in a mechanical movement are easier to recycle

This in answer to your remark about the ´green´ argument lacking in marketing.

As for marketing, this remark was ironic (note the )

[Huertecilla]

As for marketing, this remark was ironic (note the )

Bottom line is that it is no issue.

The only argument that remains standing that solar powered electronic digital is the most durable, rugged wrist watch technology of all.
Wether the technology is more/less clean to produce is marginal.
Also it is ´energy conscious´ consumer technology.

Maybe it deserves a seperate subforum.
A fascination watch is the Casio AL-180 that is currently ´reproduced´ big time and which seems to be very reliable and longlived without a battery.
Definitely low end though and a perfect example of the difference between functional qualities and quality level of manufacturing.
Just like a 50$ Vostok Amphibian versus a 5000$ Rolex DeepSea.

The topic being that for the same level of quality manufacturing the mass produced automatic is valued some 3 - 5 more than with solid state electronics inside.
Easy to grasp pink marketed wigly bits being the key difference.

This is quite funny when you think of it; the weak link leads to appreciation when sold with cachet

[xevious]

About that Casio AL-180, I've heard it is a total fake. And if you look it up on the Casio company website, you cannot find it. Why? Because it isn't made by Casio.

Someone already researched this, comparing an original AL-180 from the 1980's to this new one. Visit the soluhr website (http://www.soluhr.com/fakecasio.htm).

There IS indeed a secondary battery in it. Also, the quality of construction is noticeably below Casio quality. The case looks to be metal, but it is chromed plastic.

It's too bad eBay doesn't clamp down on these. So many people get suckered into buying one.

[Huertecilla]

About that Casio AL-180, I've heard it is a total fake. .

Hence my ´reproduced´ in brackets.

[xevious]

But you know something interest about this AL-180? According to the Casio Japan website that provides vintage module documentation, the watch supposedly employed a coin capacitor instead of a disposable battery. Check it out here: http://ftp.casio.co.jp/pub/world_manual/wat/en/qw668.pdf

There are 3 modules cited. 2 of them last only 4 days on a full charge, while one lasts 14 days. One of the 4 day modules is the 668, the same one stamped on the fake Casio available today.

Anyway, it's kind of curious... if Casio was able to make a watch in the mid 1980's with solar rechargeable capacitor that could last 14 days, wouldn't they be able to make that watch today with a capacitor lasting at least 30 days? I'm sure for a lot of people, that's plenty of time. I guess considering the "low end" aspect of the module functionality, it would be hard to market. Especially since they are already claiming "never needs a battery" on their newer models with boasted specifications of lasting 9 months or more on a full charge. I take exception to their claim, as there IS a battery and it DOES need to be replaced eventually. I'd rather them be honest and say "secondary battery lasts up to 20 years or more".