What's going on inside this Pulsar P2

[Phasar66]

I just saw this on Ebay, nice P2, it fits a 6ft 4 Guy. but the funny part is what's under the hood. Is this the new module from the guy in England or something else http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pulsar-P2-LED-V ... 43bfc7c76d

[abem]

Yes, it's using a PLT-1 module from www.pulsarledtime.com.

Just for grins, I emailed him this little note:
"Chris, Nice P2. Does it have the original module? If not, you might want to mention that in the description. Thanks."

His response:
"The ad doesn't say original module so I'm not misleading anyone. Thanks"

-abe.

[bruce wegmann]

My response to his response would be:

Yes, you are misleading people, and quite deliberately, too. Saying it is "like new, INSIDE and out", suggests it is as it left the factory. Since that is certainly not the case here, that would constitute misrepresentation (an attorney friend of mine agrees with me; a lie of omission is still a lie). If this watch goes to someone expecting a fully original watch, you will find yourself on the wrong end of a PayPal dispute, which the buyer will win. Aside from the ambiguous wording in the description, the tone of your response also casts further doubt on your intent. All of this is easily fixed with a simple change to the description; in the interest of clarity and personal integrity, this is your best option.

Somebody should just ask, point-blank, if this watch has its' original module, and see what happens. If this is really a good product, he should not have to resort to subterfuge to sell it.

[abem]

Bruce,

Yes, one of the major downsides about eBay is that it has a dispiriting tendency to make one despair about the human condition.

-abe.

[cobra007]

Funny, the seller is "escaladechris" it should probably be escalatethis

It is not "as new" inside, it IS new inside. He should definitely have mentioned the module is not original. Hopefully the buyer will take a look inside and notice this after market module.

Michel

[Timecollector]

Response from seller when I asked about the OEM module:

If i didn't mention that is the OEM module then is not...if you don't like it pls dont bid.
Thanks

- escaladechris

[bruce wegmann]

Wow, a little too much "attitude" there for me. He's saying "If I didn't say it was the original module, than you should know it isn't". Baloney... If it isn't the original electronics in the watch, that should be a central part of the description! And, unless Chris is the greatest psychic in the history of the world, how can he possibly KNOW "I'm not misleading anyone"? It's up to the seller to give as clear and accurate a description of an item as possible, a requirement that is clearly not being met here. I can almost guarantee you, the newbie bidder with 16 feedbacks thinks this watch has a Time Computer module in it. And, the fact that he hasn't posted the question and answer about the rebuilt module indicates he wants to keep that fact hidden. Boo, Chris! A poor way indeed to start a business... Oh, and the quoted shipping cost is an outrage, too...I've sent stuff to Australia for half that.

[cobra007]

I think you're going to like this. I have compared 4 available P2 watches on ebay. If you take a very close look at the colon area separating the hours from the minutes, you will see a distinct difference between the OEM module and the after market module. Only the two auctions that state they have the original module inside do actually have this module. The second one I found is also an after market module.

Also an after market module but seller doesn't mention this:
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Vintage-Pulsar-LED-P2-James-Bond-Watch-Working-with-Setting-Magnet-New-Battery-/171124391042?pt=Wristwatches&hash=item27d7cefc82&_uhb=1

Comparison:


I played around a bit with the brightness and contrast settings to get a clear image, but you got to agree that the difference is very clear.

Michel

[abem]

Michel,

Hi. What you're seeing, I think, is the difference between displays made by Monsanto and Litronix as discussed here: viewtopic.php?f=79&t=6506

The displays are original and are virtually impossible to replicate, repair or modify in any substantial way.

I've actually heard that Ben Azari's PLT-1 modules are very nice - accurate, efficient, bright, and with an optional date/DOW capability on the one button P2. Many buyers would be perfectly content with this module and if the seller would just be honest, he could probably sell it for almost as much as if the module were original There ought to be a way for people to publicly comment on items but eBay is clearly not intèrested in the buyer's welfare and just want to move as many units as possible.

-abe.

[cobra007]

Michel,

Hi. What you're seeing, I think, is the difference between displays made by Monsanto and Litronix as discussed here: viewtopic.php?f=79&t=6506

The displays are original and are virtually impossible to replicate, repair or modify in any substantial way.

I've actually heard that Ben Azari's PLT-1 modules are very nice - accurate, efficient, bright, and with an optional date/DOW capability on the one button P2. Many buyers would be perfectly content with this module and if the seller would just be honest, he could probably sell it for almost as much as if the module were original There ought to be a way for people to publicly comment on items but eBay is clearly not intèrested in the buyer's welfare and just want to move as many units as possible.

-abe.

I see, thanks for clearing that up . Perhaps the people who are truly interested in the watch will probably ask the seller about the module. Ebay could add a discussion section in the listing where anyone can leave a comment or comment on other people's comments, wouldn't be a bad idea!

Michel

[bruce wegmann]

Abe is absolutely right about the displays...all are off original Time Computer modules (item 805 is a Monsanto readout, 133, Litronix...can't quite tell on the other one). Nobody has made displays of this type for 35 years, so the only existing source is scavenged vintage modules. But, we digress from the core issue here...the watch has a modern, non-Time Computer circuit board in it, and the seller is going out of his way to conceal that fact. Technically, my legal source tells me, at best, this is misrepresentation, and at worst, fraud. I don't know how that's treated in the UK, but here in the Colonies, that's a BIG no-no.
I'm not prepared to argue the technical merits of the circuit, because, among other things, I haven't seen one, but even if they are actually superior to the original electronics, the fact remains that they're NOT original, and to a collector, that makes a serious difference in the value. Actually, Hanno himself opened this Pandora's box with his first replacement modules (you see, it didn't used to be necessary to explicitly state that a watch had its' original electronics, but, with modern replacements available, it is now), and he should be leading the charge against this kind of sloppy and shady marketing. I am not currently involved in the replacement-module market, but if that should happen, I guarantee you, nobody who buys such a thing from me will do so without clearly understanding exactly what they are buying.

[richard_uk]

I don't get why the cloak and dagger, if I was selling that watch I'd disclose the module and try to make it a positive thing, like more reliable and likely to last longer etc. I can't see it making a great deal of difference to the final price.

[bucko170]

I agree with Richards comments.

Hanno might have lead the way with the replacement modules and I am very pleased that he did and I hope he continues the good work for many years to come.

"Hanno should be leading the charge against this kind of sloppy and shady marketing".....Why? The action of others is hardly his fault and it's not even his module!

[Ole Joe]

[quote="abem"]Michel,

Hi. What you're seeing, I think, is the difference between displays made by Monsanto and Litronix as discussed here: viewtopic.php?f=79&t=6506

Hi Abe,

Here's a copy of an original data sheet for a 3 1/2digit Watch Display produced by Monsanto. It carries the Monsanto part # MWD1321, and was used in the Frontier 2002 series of modules. The Frontier 2002 modules were used by Omega and many other watch manufactures. Looking at the "Notes" at the bottom of the page indicates how the luminous intensities of the display segments were measured. Note that from brightest to dimmest could vary by a ratio of 1.8:1.

Ole Joe

img002.jpg

[bruce wegmann]

That's essentially saying the only thing that matters is the case...the innards are almost irrelevant. Ridiculous...try telling that to a Rolex or Patek-Philippe collector, and see what kind of response you get! As a collector, originality is first and foremost. In my not-so-humble opinion, Pulsars (or any other make, for that matter), rebuilt in this fashion, have value (a working watch is certainly worth more than a non-working one), but not collector value...we're down to the value of the case, plus the cost of the module. Maybe, as the years pass, and there are fewer and fewer working originals out there (which will ultimately become outrageously expensive), replacement modules will become more acceptable to the (purist) collectors, but we are a long way from that point yet. I will not retreat one millimetre from my position on total disclosure of all aspects of a watch's condition as a minimal standard of seller honesty.
As for Hanno "leading the charge", in a way, he already is, by example...all his replacement modules are clearly sold as such, on eBay and elsewhere. I suppose I could just back away from all this (after all, there's no chance I could buy something like this by mistake), but there are new people entering this market every day, who don't have the experience or in-depth knowledge to pick up on details like this. It's not our place to take advantage of that and make their lives more difficult. One bad deal at the beginning could steer someone out of this hobby forever, and ultimately, none of us will benefit from that.

[SASM]

When I started with the replacement modules there was a huge discomfort with collectors as they thought I would sell them as originals. That was my intention at no time as I believe it to be untrustworthy. In the long run, all the work which was involved and all the updates and new units up to this date were made for nothing as I could not sell them today anymore. All my modules light up with 'SAS so that nobody can say he/she didn´t know about the replacement module.

Bruce is right in that watches with replacement modules aren´t that interesting for collectors (and some collectors do not like them at all which I can understand), however these collectors do not represent the market. Nowadays (and it took some time) it should not be a big issue to sell a watch with replacement module at ebay for the same price as one with working original module. Personally I blame all sellers which are selling watches with replacement modules without any declaration. I would never do it and I tell my customers not to do it. For that reason I cannot remember anyone of my customers to sell a watch with replacement module as original at ebay or anywhere else and if so, I wouldn´t deliver further movements. However I have no control regarding third parties.

[cobra007]

Is it easy to take off the old LED display and put it onto the new board? It looks like it is a similar construction as a modern QFN package, or not?

Michel

[fronzelneekburm]

I'm with Bruce here. While the aftermarket modules work quite well they are just "modern" LED modules imho and from a collector's view a no-go or an "emergency solution" at best.

If you have a P2 or so for daily wear (I think even if you have 10 of them you don't wear a P1 on a daily base) I guess it's okay to go for an aftermarket module, but yeah selling them without further notice on ebay is simply fraud imho. It's like if you buy a Ferrari and it has a Chrysler engine inside - even if it has the same HP you'd still not be very pleased if you find out.